BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

This is the forum for discussion of all cricketing issues and news. Here you will find frank analysis and opinion on subjects ranging from selection policies, favourite cricketers and match post-mortems right through to dressing room and cricket board fiascos.
User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:18 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Hint: Adelaide has longer grass.

Logic is not completely subjective bar possibly weighting. But your premise with Adelaide is erroneous. Adelaide is the antithesis to your core premise. Adelaide is offered as proof in part of mine.


You do realise the grass was cut shorter this year?
You do realise the weather was considerably cooler and there was more precipitation, however the pitch was still drier than previous years?

You knew all that right?


Grass was 6mm this year.

Grass was 6mm last year.

Grass was 8mm in 2015.

Grass in Adelaide is longer than elsewhere in straya due to day night test and pink ball.

My premise includes longer grass. Yours doesn't. In fact you argue against it.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:23 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
You do realise the grass was cut shorter this year?
You do realise the weather was considerably cooler and there was more precipitation, however the pitch was still drier than previous years?

You knew all that right?


Grass was 6mm this year.

Grass was 6mm last year.

Grass was 8mm in 2015.

Grass in Adelaide is longer than elsewhere in straya due to day night test and pink ball.

My premise includes longer grass. Yours doesn't.


?

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:26 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Grass was 6mm this year.

Grass was 6mm last year.

Grass was 8mm in 2015.

Grass in Adelaide is longer than elsewhere in straya due to day night test and pink ball.

My premise includes longer grass. Yours doesn't.


?


I think CA can control the ball and the grass, asking them to control the temperature is beyond what I think is reasonable.

:lmao:

So the ball moved most in Aus grounds in 2015 and 2016 when warmer and in 2017 when cooler.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:29 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
?


I think CA can control the ball and the grass, asking them to control the temperature is betond what I think is reasonable.

:lmao:


You might have fallen on the point

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:30 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
I think CA can control the ball and the grass, asking them to control the temperature is betond what I think is reasonable.

:lmao:


You might have fallen on the point


Doubt it.

So the ball moved most and for longer in Aus grounds at Adelaide in 2015 and 2016 when warmer and so far in 2017 when cooler.

You have no point.

You're just telling me length of grass on a pitch doesn't matter. The ball hits it repeatedly and with force. How obtuse are you?
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:36 am

By the way - in a modern era - changing the clay for the pitch is within home board influence.

And the duke not only detoriates less comparatively to the kookaburra - it also has a more promounced seam. Unless seam measurements no longer matter to movement according to you.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:39 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
You might have fallen on the point


Doubt it.

So the ball moved most in Aus grounds at Adelaide in 2015 and 2016 when warmer and so far in 2017 when cooler.

You have no point.


didnt move as much last year Khawaja made a hundred batting mostly at night.

This year's pitch was drier as proven by moisture maps. The grass was dead.
More movement in the air when the atmosphere was still. Nothing to do with the pitch, everything to do with the weather.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:40 am

Paddles wrote:By the way - in a modern era - changing the clay for the pitch is within home board influence.

And the duke not only detoriates less comparatively to the kookaburra - it also has a more promounced seam. Unless seam measurements no longer matter to movement according to you.


seam doesnt influence swing

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:44 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Doubt it.

So the ball moved most in Aus grounds at Adelaide in 2015 and 2016 when warmer and so far in 2017 when cooler.

You have no point.


didnt move as much last year Khawaja made a hundred batting mostly at night.

This year's pitch was drier as proven by moisture maps. The grass was dead.
More movement in the air when the atmosphere was still. Nothing to do with the pitch, everything to do with the weather.


Does grass length make a difference to pitch and ball characteristics?

Yes or no?

Does the Duke have different characteristics in terms of swing, seam and deterioation to the Kookaburra?

Yes or no?
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:49 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:By the way - in a modern era - changing the clay for the pitch is within home board influence.

And the duke not only detoriates less comparatively to the kookaburra - it also has a more promounced seam. Unless seam measurements no longer matter to movement according to you.


seam doesnt influence swing


Who cares if it does or doesn't?

Not relevant.

Hint - detoriation affects both swing and seam movement longevity and influences.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:50 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
didnt move as much last year Khawaja made a hundred batting mostly at night.

This year's pitch was drier as proven by moisture maps. The grass was dead.
More movement in the air when the atmosphere was still. Nothing to do with the pitch, everything to do with the weather.


Does grass length make a difference to pitch and ball characteristics?

Yes or no?

Does the Duke have different characteristics in terms of swing, seam and deterioation to the Kookaburra?

Yes or no?


yes
no

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:51 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
seam doesnt influence swing


Who cares if it does or doesn't?

Not relevant.

Hint - detoriation affects both swing and seam movement longevity and influences.


I care

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:53 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Does grass length make a difference to pitch and ball characteristics?

Yes or no?

Does the Duke have different characteristics in terms of swing, seam and deterioation to the Kookaburra?

Yes or no?


yes
no


A duke ball has a more pronounced seam - this helps seam movement, yes or no?
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:53 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Who cares if it does or doesn't?

Not relevant.

Hint - detoriation affects both swing and seam movement longevity and influences.


I care


Why and how is it relevant?
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:54 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
yes
no


A duke ball has a more pronounced seam - this helps seam movement, yes or no?

yes

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:55 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
I care


Why and how is it relevant?


because the topic was about swing and pitch condition

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:57 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Why and how is it relevant?


because the topic was about swing and pitch condition


I never set swing as a topic.

Pitch preparation and ball infuences swing, seam and spin be it causal (incl to degree), when or longevity. Yes or no?
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:01 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
A duke ball has a more pronounced seam - this helps seam movement, yes or no?

yes


Experiences in Straya have shown that the Duke balls sent to Australia were sent back to Duke for not detoriating fast enough. Yes or no?
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:02 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
because the topic was about swing and pitch condition


I never set swing as a topic.

Pitch preparation and ball infuences swing, seam and spin.


The topic was based on the premise that Australia doctors pitches to prevent swing :lol:
Then you started talking about balls being used as an unfair advantage when the same balls have been used here for 70 years.
Now you want to talk about seam movement :lol: When seam movement happens on both under and over prepared pitches in Australia as well as pitches that start off as batting paradises and fall victim to baking heat (eg Adelaide prior to 2015)

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:03 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:yes


Experiences in Straya have shown that the Duke balls sent to Australia were sent back to Duke for not detoriating fast enough. Yes or no?


That's not a yes or no question. You'd make a shit lawyer.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:05 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
I never set swing as a topic.

Pitch preparation and ball infuences swing, seam and spin.


The topic was based on the premise that Australia doctors pitches to prevent swing :lol:
Then you started talking about balls being used as an unfair advantage when the same balls have been used here for 70 years.
Now you want to talk about seam movement :lol: When seam movement happens on both under and over prepared pitches in Australia as well as pitches that start off as batting paradises and fall victim to baking heat (eg Adelaide prior to 2015)


Swing? Nah Aussie roads bury more bowlers than swingers. Spinners don't typically stand a chance and seamers like Philander don't find the going easy neither.

By the way I rate Lyon highly and hugely upon his performances in Aus. He's an excellent bowler and I can quote where I said that earlier on this forum.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:07 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
The topic was based on the premise that Australia doctors pitches to prevent swing :lol:
Then you started talking about balls being used as an unfair advantage when the same balls have been used here for 70 years.
Now you want to talk about seam movement :lol: When seam movement happens on both under and over prepared pitches in Australia as well as pitches that start off as batting paradises and fall victim to baking heat (eg Adelaide prior to 2015)


Swing? Nah Aussie roads bury more bowlers than swingers. Spinners don't stand a chance and seamers like Philander don't find the going easy neither.


You know why spinners struggle?

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:09 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Swing? Nah Aussie roads bury more bowlers than swingers. Spinners don't stand a chance and seamers like Philander don't find the going easy neither.


You know why spinners struggle?


Well it aint because the current Aussie batsmen play spinning pitches well :lmao:

Bangladesh loss test.

UAE series loss.

Sri Lanka series loss.

India series loss.

If I had more energy I'd go find your own quotes about Aussie bats and pitch movement.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:15 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
You know why spinners struggle?


Well it aint because the current Aussie batsmen play spinning pitches well :lmao:

Bangladesh loss test.

UAE series loss.

Sri Lanka series loss.

India series loss.

If I had more energy I'd go find your own quotes about Aussie bats and pitch movement.


Do you know why spinners struggle in Australia? :popcorn:

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:24 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Well it aint because the current Aussie batsmen play spinning pitches well :lmao:

Bangladesh loss test.

UAE series loss.

Sri Lanka series loss.

India series loss.

If I had more energy I'd go find your own quotes about Aussie bats and pitch movement.


Do you know why spinners struggle in Australia? :popcorn:


Firstly its not spinners but most finger spinners outside Sydney. McGill, Warne and Benaud (if we go back that far) were typically threats.

Because most finger spinners get less revs per speed bowled and thus they get far less assistance from the pitch to turn the ball. The footmarks are less conducive than elsewhere in facilitating spin for finger spinners as well. But a leggie like Warne could turn it sideways from 'em.

Vetorri, Jadeja and Ashwin types are "drift swingers" at best without turn off the pitch in Aus. Without the ball biting and turning - its easy going for batsmen to play out as against Asian burners. With pronounced overspin like Lyon, the extra bounce of Aussie pitches may be exploited some spinners. But he is a gun overspinner for a finger spinner.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:28 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
Do you know why spinners struggle in Australia? :popcorn:


Firstly its not spinners but most finger spinners outside Sydney. McGill, Warne and Benaud (if we go back that far) were typically threats.

Because most finger spinners get less revs per speed bowled and thus they get far less assistance from the pitch to turn the ball. The footmarks are less conducive than elsewhere in facilitating spin for finger spinners as well. But a leggie like Warne could turn it sideways from 'em.

Vetorri, Jadeja and Ashwin types are drift swingers at best without turn off the pitch in Aus. Without the ball biting and turning - its easy going for batsmen to play out as against Asian burners. With pronounced overspin like Lyon, the extra bounce of Aussie pitches may be exploited some spinners. But he is a gun overspinner for a finger spinner.


...and do you know why the ball doesn't bite and turn in Australia? :popcorn:

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:29 pm

As for Yasir Shah sucking in Aus last year - I was disapointed.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:32 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Firstly its not spinners but most finger spinners outside Sydney. McGill, Warne and Benaud (if we go back that far) were typically threats.

Because most finger spinners get less revs per speed bowled and thus they get far less assistance from the pitch to turn the ball. The footmarks are less conducive than elsewhere in facilitating spin for finger spinners as well. But a leggie like Warne could turn it sideways from 'em.

Vetorri, Jadeja and Ashwin types are drift swingers at best without turn off the pitch in Aus. Without the ball biting and turning - its easy going for batsmen to play out as against Asian burners. With pronounced overspin like Lyon, the extra bounce of Aussie pitches may be exploited some spinners. But he is a gun overspinner for a finger spinner.


...and do you know why the ball doesn't bite and turn in Australia? :popcorn:


Well it used to in the era of Tiger and before him England's SF Barnes who got major sideways movement at quicker than regular spinner pace. But then English slow spinners got much better consistently and Asian countries got test status and then produced gun finger spinners and Aus got fast bowlers who bowled bouncers and suddenly outside Sydney the pitches didn't turn as much except slow big ripping leggies.

Not what you expected Katto? :cool:
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
...and do you know why the ball doesn't bite and turn in Australia? :popcorn:


Well it used to in the era of Tiger and before him England's SF Barnes who got major sideways movement at quicker than regular spinner pace. But then English spinners got better and Asian countries got test status and gun finger spinners and Aus got fast bowlers who bowled bouncers and suddenly outside Sydney the pitches didn't turn as much except slow big ripping leggies.


thanks for the history lesson, but that doesn't answer my question

lets start with a simple yes or no, then we can work up to a reason.. sound good?

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:35 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Well it used to in the era of Tiger and before him England's SF Barnes who got major sideways movement at quicker than regular spinner pace. But then English spinners got better and Asian countries got test status and gun finger spinners and Aus got fast bowlers who bowled bouncers and suddenly outside Sydney the pitches didn't turn as much except slow big ripping leggies.


thanks for the history lesson, but that doesn't answer my question

lets start with a simple yes or no, then we can work up to a reason.. sound good?



Yeah Nah.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:36 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
...and do you know why the ball doesn't bite and turn in Australia? :popcorn:


Well it used to in the era of Tiger and before him England's SF Barnes who got major sideways movement at quicker than regular spinner pace. But then English slow spinners got much better consistently and Asian countries got test status and then produced gun finger spinners and Aus got fast bowlers who bowled bouncers and suddenly outside Sydney the pitches didn't turn as much except slow big ripping leggies.

Not what you expected Katto? :cool:


Read my edits Katto :)
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:38 pm

Paddles wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Well it used to in the era of Tiger and before him England's SF Barnes who got major sideways movement at quicker than regular spinner pace. But then English slow spinners got much better consistently and Asian countries got test status and then produced gun finger spinners and Aus got fast bowlers who bowled bouncers and suddenly outside Sydney the pitches didn't turn as much except slow big ripping leggies.

Not what you expected Katto? :cool:


Read my edits Katto :)


I'd like a technical/physical reason rather than a conspiracy theory. Can we do that?

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:44 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Read my edits Katto :)


I'd like a technical/physical reason rather than a conspiracy theory. Can we do that?


Because technically and physically the pitches are not designed to.

You can blame drop in pitches at the MCG all you like - but it started before then.

You can blame covered pitches stopping sticky dogs - but how much did it rain before compared to England?

Truth is - Aus can make spinning pitches if they wanted and did do so to prepare for their India tour. And India can create green seamers too. Its by design. Mankind can exercise some control over soil (incl choice) and most grass types (if any). We are that advanced.

Heck if Hamilton can create a split block of two different soils, one supporting and heavily conducive to spin- anyone can.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:07 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
I'd like a technical/physical reason rather than a conspiracy theory. Can we do that?


Because technically and physically the pitches are not designed to.

You can blame drop in pitches at the MCG all you like - but it started before then.

You can blame covered pitches stopping sticky dogs - but how much did it rain before compared to England?

Truth is - Aus can make spinning pitches if they wanted and did do so to prepare for their India tour. And India can create green seamers too. Its by design. Mankind can exercise some control over soil (incl choice) and most grass types (if any). We are that advanced.

Heck if Hamilton can create a split block of two different soils, one supporting and heavily conducive to spin- anyone can.


what physical characteristic of a pitch causes turn?

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:33 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Because technically and physically the pitches are not designed to.

You can blame drop in pitches at the MCG all you like - but it started before then.

You can blame covered pitches stopping sticky dogs - but how much did it rain before compared to England?

Truth is - Aus can make spinning pitches if they wanted and did do so to prepare for their India tour. And India can create green seamers too. Its by design. Mankind can exercise some control over soil (incl choice) and most grass types (if any). We are that advanced.

Heck if Hamilton can create a split block of two different soils, one supporting and heavily conducive to spin- anyone can.


what physical characteristic of a pitch causes turn?


None. The turn is caused by side revolutions on the ball produced by the bowler pitching and gripping in friction. A ball doesn't simply turn 'cos it hit a pitch.

Perhaps you mean to ask which physical characteristics of pitch surfaces are more conducive to the degree the ball deviates after pitching in relation to the amount of turn and speed generated by the bowler? Those that allow the greatest degree of friction on the ball pitching.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:53 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
what physical characteristic of a pitch causes turn?


None. The turn is caused by side revolutions on the ball produced by the bowler pitching and gripping in friction. A ball doesn't simply turn 'cos it hit a pitch.

Perhaps you mean to ask which physical characteristics of pitch surfaces are more conducive to the degree the ball deviates after pitching in relation to the amount of turn and speed generated by the bowler? Those that allow the greatest degree of friction on the ball pitching.


FMD :roll:

okay, so we'll cut to the chase..
purchase is conducive to turn right? yes?

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:09 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
None. The turn is caused by side revolutions on the ball produced by the bowler pitching and gripping in friction. A ball doesn't simply turn 'cos it hit a pitch.

Perhaps you mean to ask which physical characteristics of pitch surfaces are more conducive to the degree the ball deviates after pitching in relation to the amount of turn and speed generated by the bowler? Those that allow the greatest degree of friction on the ball pitching.


FMD :roll:

okay, so we'll cut to the chase..
purchase is conducive to turn right? yes?


If you're asking me which physical characteristics of pitch surfaces are more conducive to the degree the ball deviates after pitching in relation to the amount of turn and speed generated by the bowler? Those that allow the greatest degree of friction on the ball pitching.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:18 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
FMD :roll:

okay, so we'll cut to the chase..
purchase is conducive to turn right? yes?


If you're asking me which physical characteristics of pitch surfaces are more conducive to the degree the ball deviates after pitching in relation to the amount of turn and speed generated by the bowler? Those that allow the greatest degree of friction on the ball pitching.


yes ffs

User avatar
baggygreenmania
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 2502
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:22 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Australia

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:49 am

bolero wrote:About pitches, there has always been a clamour in India for more seam friendly pitches. Traditionally, India had a couple of pitches which was extremely seam friendly eg Mohali . But Mohali which was over the years considered a fast bowlers paradise has turned into a flat deck much the way of WACA Perth.

Now with Saurav Ganguly as head of CAB (Cricket Association of Bengal) after Dalmiya's demise, we had a bouncy track at Eden Gardens for the India - Sri Lanka match which took everyone by surprise (also there was heavy rain and covers for most of day 1 and 2). Excepting Cheteshwara Pujara , none of the Indian batsmen were able to negotiate the pace, bounce and movement when pitch was at its most juiciest. Ganguly is an advocate for fast, seam friendly pitches.Pitch was doing something on day 5 too when the likes of Shami were storming in and bowling fast. SL got out of jail with bad light at 75-7 on day 5.

Bolero as I see it Ganguly has the correct idea if India is to compete away from home, specially on the bouncier more bowler-friendly tracks produced in Australia and Sth Africa.

Surely the BCCI and the Indian players are fed up coming here and getting whipped every time despite us producing flatter than normal decks to suit the sub-continental player in order to ensure five day Tests.

As for turning around Australia's deplorable record in India, Indian replica pitches have been created at our National Cricket Centre. Early days for these to bear fruit. But it is a start and not overdue. In addition our Cricket Pathways Program sends talented youth to the sub continent and embeds them in local competitions.

Australia has an equally miserable record against England at home as we are nor familiar to seaming, swinging decks and dank, overcast conditions. Thankfully CA is trying to redress the problem. Last Shield season we used a variation of the English Duke ball.. noted for its ability to seam longer and induce swing.

Without dragging out stats I would say it was a moderate success. Again it is a start.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:31 am

baggygreenmania wrote:
bolero wrote:About pitches, there has always been a clamour in India for more seam friendly pitches. Traditionally, India had a couple of pitches which was extremely seam friendly eg Mohali . But Mohali which was over the years considered a fast bowlers paradise has turned into a flat deck much the way of WACA Perth.

Now with Saurav Ganguly as head of CAB (Cricket Association of Bengal) after Dalmiya's demise, we had a bouncy track at Eden Gardens for the India - Sri Lanka match which took everyone by surprise (also there was heavy rain and covers for most of day 1 and 2). Excepting Cheteshwara Pujara , none of the Indian batsmen were able to negotiate the pace, bounce and movement when pitch was at its most juiciest. Ganguly is an advocate for fast, seam friendly pitches.Pitch was doing something on day 5 too when the likes of Shami were storming in and bowling fast. SL got out of jail with bad light at 75-7 on day 5.

Bolero as I see it Ganguly has the correct idea if India is to compete away from home, specially on the bouncier more bowler-friendly tracks produced in Australia and Sth Africa.

Surely the BCCI and the Indian players are fed up coming here and getting whipped every time despite us producing flatter than normal decks to suit the sub-continental player in order to ensure five day Tests.

As for turning around Australia's deplorable record in India, Indian replica pitches have been created at our National Cricket Centre. Early days for these to bear fruit. But it is a start and not overdue. In addition our Cricket Pathways Program sends talented youth to the sub continent and embeds them in local competitions.

Australia has an equally miserable record against England at home as we are nor familiar to seaming, swinging decks and dank, overcast conditions. Thankfully CA is trying to redress the problem. Last Shield season we used a variation of the English Duke ball.. noted for its ability to seam longer and induce swing.

Without dragging out stats I would say it was a moderate success. Again it is a start.


Stop talking so much sense Baggers, you'll upset Katto.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:03 am

Piddles you do realise the same pitch characteristics that hinder spin also preserve the state of the ball.
Case is closed here. Another sad loss for your legal team.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:27 am

Katto wrote:Piddles you do realise the same pitch characteristics that hinder spin also preserve the state of the ball.
Case is closed here. Another sad loss for your legal team.


Even if you're right for all scenarios, so what? Who cares?

Australia can make pitches that spin more. Fact.

Australia can make pitches that protect the ball which enables conventional swing for longer.

They can do with this grass (and soil) variables, which may assist seam movement.

I don't even need to discuss whether your premise is correct bringing the factor of dry grass, cos your basic premise is irrelevant.

Curators can design pitches to help suit. Fact.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:29 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:Piddles you do realise the same pitch characteristics that hinder spin also preserve the state of the ball.
Case is closed here. Another sad loss for your legal team.


Even if you're right for all scenarios, so what? Who cares?

Australia can make pitches that spin more. Fact.

Australia can make pitches that protect the ball which enables conventional swing for longer.

They can do with this grass (and soil) variables, which may assist seam movement.

I don't even need to discuss whether your premise is correct bringing the factor of dry grass, cos your basic premise is irrelevant.

Curators can design pitches to help suit. Fact.


I win. Fact.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:34 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Even if you're right for all scenarios, so what? Who cares?

Australia can make pitches that spin more. Fact.

Australia can make pitches that protect the ball which enables conventional swing for longer.

They can do with this grass (and soil) variables, which may assist seam movement.

I don't even need to discuss whether your premise is correct bringing the factor of dry grass, cos your basic premise is irrelevant.

Curators can design pitches to help suit. Fact.


I win. Fact.


Well who am I to try and convince your otherwise?

Lets just escape logic, physics and curator groundskeeper abilities.

You sure did win Katto. You're a champion. You called me "piddles" instead of Paddles again, that's 5 points. You got in again a lawyer reference, that's 5 points. Even if I called you "dumb dumb" again this one looks all over red rover.

Well done Katto, you're a winner.

Debate with me when you want to be open to logic, instead of "winning" some point scoring insult fest.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

Mick180461
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 1219
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:28 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Australia

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:25 am

baggygreenmania wrote:
bolero wrote:About pitches, there has always been a clamour in India for more seam friendly pitches. Traditionally, India had a couple of pitches which was extremely seam friendly eg Mohali . But Mohali which was over the years considered a fast bowlers paradise has turned into a flat deck much the way of WACA Perth.

Now with Saurav Ganguly as head of CAB (Cricket Association of Bengal) after Dalmiya's demise, we had a bouncy track at Eden Gardens for the India - Sri Lanka match which took everyone by surprise (also there was heavy rain and covers for most of day 1 and 2). Excepting Cheteshwara Pujara , none of the Indian batsmen were able to negotiate the pace, bounce and movement when pitch was at its most juiciest. Ganguly is an advocate for fast, seam friendly pitches.Pitch was doing something on day 5 too when the likes of Shami were storming in and bowling fast. SL got out of jail with bad light at 75-7 on day 5.

Bolero as I see it Ganguly has the correct idea if India is to compete away from home, specially on the bouncier more bowler-friendly tracks produced in Australia and Sth Africa.

Surely the BCCI and the Indian players are fed up coming here and getting whipped every time despite us producing flatter than normal decks to suit the sub-continental player in order to ensure five day Tests.

As for turning around Australia's deplorable record in India, Indian replica pitches have been created at our National Cricket Centre. Early days for these to bear fruit. But it is a start and not overdue. In addition our Cricket Pathways Program sends talented youth to the sub continent and embeds them in local competitions.

Australia has an equally miserable record against England at home as we are nor familiar to seaming, swinging decks and dank, overcast conditions. Thankfully CA is trying to redress the problem. Last Shield season we used a variation of the English Duke ball.. noted for its ability to seam longer and induce swing.

Without dragging out stats I would say it was a moderate success. Again it is a start.

Australia's record in England is a lot better then in India, since 1972 we have won 5 series in England and only once in India. Australia stopped winning in England when we stopped playing County matches in numbers.

User avatar
Katto
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 14726
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:34 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Tuvalu

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:37 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
I win. Fact.


Well who am I to try and convince your otherwise?

Lets just escape logic, physics and curator groundskeeper abilities.

You sure did win Katto. You're a champion. You called me "piddles" instead of Paddles again, that's 5 points. You got in again a lawyer reference, that's 5 points. Even if I called you "dumb dumb" again this one looks all over red rover.

Well done Katto, you're a winner.

Debate with me when you want to be open to logic, instead of "winning" some point scoring insult fest.


bless

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:42 am

Mick180461 wrote:
baggygreenmania wrote:Bolero as I see it Ganguly has the correct idea if India is to compete away from home, specially on the bouncier more bowler-friendly tracks produced in Australia and Sth Africa.

Surely the BCCI and the Indian players are fed up coming here and getting whipped every time despite us producing flatter than normal decks to suit the sub-continental player in order to ensure five day Tests.

As for turning around Australia's deplorable record in India, Indian replica pitches have been created at our National Cricket Centre. Early days for these to bear fruit. But it is a start and not overdue. In addition our Cricket Pathways Program sends talented youth to the sub continent and embeds them in local competitions.

Australia has an equally miserable record against England at home as we are nor familiar to seaming, swinging decks and dank, overcast conditions. Thankfully CA is trying to redress the problem. Last Shield season we used a variation of the English Duke ball.. noted for its ability to seam longer and induce swing.

Without dragging out stats I would say it was a moderate success. Again it is a start.

Australia's record in England is a lot better then in India, since 1972 we have won 5 series in England and only once in India. Australia stopped winning in England when we stopped playing County matches in numbers.


Yes but Englands record in Australia is also much better than India's. India has zero wins and Eng has at least 3 I can think of since 1974/75.

The ipl pays so much better than county cricket and facilitates longer holidays. But it aint done much for Straya t20 level of late.

Does seem to England's disadvantage to let too many Aussies play for the counties and NZ'ers are now getting county gigs for non-intls.

But overall - I agree with your sentiment - going and playing county FC cricket will assist Aus ashes hopes in Eng more than playing IPL. But IPL and t20 leagues pay better.

While grade cricket will welcome tonnes of Eng off season pro's - do you really foresee all Aus FC teams lwtting 2 poms play each fc game in Aus? Even if say 10 were talented enough? Khan, Botham - well they sell tickets but Ali or Stoneman? Maybe in Big Bash like Carbury, Stokes and Broad - but FC?
Last edited by Paddles on Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
Paddles
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4104
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:31 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Bank: Locked
Reputation: 0

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:46 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Well who am I to try and convince your otherwise?

Lets just escape logic, physics and curator groundskeeper abilities.

You sure did win Katto. You're a champion. You called me "piddles" instead of Paddles again, that's 5 points. You got in again a lawyer reference, that's 5 points. Even if I called you "dumb dumb" again this one looks all over red rover.

Well done Katto, you're a winner.

Debate with me when you want to be open to logic, instead of "winning" some point scoring insult fest.


bless


Last word?
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

User avatar
bolero
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4290
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:09 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
India

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby bolero » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:56 am

baggygreenmania wrote:
bolero wrote:About pitches, there has always been a clamour in India for more seam friendly pitches. Traditionally, India had a couple of pitches which was extremely seam friendly eg Mohali . But Mohali which was over the years considered a fast bowlers paradise has turned into a flat deck much the way of WACA Perth.

Now with Saurav Ganguly as head of CAB (Cricket Association of Bengal) after Dalmiya's demise, we had a bouncy track at Eden Gardens for the India - Sri Lanka match which took everyone by surprise (also there was heavy rain and covers for most of day 1 and 2). Excepting Cheteshwara Pujara , none of the Indian batsmen were able to negotiate the pace, bounce and movement when pitch was at its most juiciest. Ganguly is an advocate for fast, seam friendly pitches.Pitch was doing something on day 5 too when the likes of Shami were storming in and bowling fast. SL got out of jail with bad light at 75-7 on day 5.

Bolero as I see it Ganguly has the correct idea if India is to compete away from home, specially on the bouncier more bowler-friendly tracks produced in Australia and Sth Africa.

Surely the BCCI and the Indian players are fed up coming here and getting whipped every time despite us producing flatter than normal decks to suit the sub-continental player in order to ensure five day Tests.

As for turning around Australia's deplorable record in India, Indian replica pitches have been created at our National Cricket Centre. Early days for these to bear fruit. But it is a start and not overdue. In addition our Cricket Pathways Program sends talented youth to the sub continent and embeds them in local competitions.

Australia has an equally miserable record against England at home as we are nor familiar to seaming, swinging decks and dank, overcast conditions. Thankfully CA is trying to redress the problem. Last Shield season we used a variation of the English Duke ball.. noted for its ability to seam longer and induce swing.

Without dragging out stats I would say it was a moderate success. Again it is a start.


I agree with you. Atleast India has started winning tests overseas since 2000. Prior to that, in the 90's , it was a lot worse under fixer Azhar. Adelaide 2003, Perth 2008 were the ones India won in Australia in recent years. Similar in England Leeds 2002, Nottingham 2007 (India won that series in England), Lords 2014.

So India is on the upward track post 2000 when compared to the 90's. There was a blip when Dhoni presided over the rout in England and Australia in 2011.

Hopefully Kohli would do better this time in South Africa. India has won previously in Jo'Burg 2006, Durban 2010. There are many factors, the form and fitness of Indian fast bowlers (we have had many instances of Zaheer breaking down previously), how Indian batsmen manage with the extra bounce, the spinners (I am not happy with the selection of spinners on SA tour, would have wanted Kuldeep and Chahl) and last but not the least fielding. There are a couple of passengers (fielding) in the team, although most are good.

User avatar
bolero
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 4290
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:09 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
India

Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby bolero » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:03 am

Ok some facts on SG and Kookaburra Ball as stated by former Indian opener Akash Chopra, now a noted commentator and analyst.

Decoding the SG and Kookaburra

AAKASH CHOPRA

Dear readers,

A couple of years ago the BCCI decided to use Kookaburra balls in the Duleep Trophy to give our domestic players a feel of this type of ball, as at the international level, except for the Test cricket played in India and England, this ball is commonly used.

We, in India, use the SG Test ball and England plays with either a Duke or a Readers ball (these two are quite similar to the SG Test balls used in India). But even that is restricted only to the red balls because the shorter formats all over the world are played with the white Kookaburra ball.

It was exactly the same in the Indian domestic circuit till the introduction of the Kookaburra ball for the Duleep Trophy. The longer format, before this move, was played with the SG Test ball and the one-day matches with the white Kookaburra ball.

Every time the Indian team tours overseas we hear a lot about the difficulty our players face in getting used to the Kookaburra ball in the Test matches. One might just wonder what the fuss is all about. After all it's the same leather ball; the size, shape and the weight are exactly the same, regardless of the brand. All this is true, but let me assure you that there's a huge difference in the way different balls behave in the air and off the surface.

I'll start with the SG Test ball first, which has a more pronounced seam and which remains pronounced for almost the entire length of the innings. The pronounced seam helps the faster bowlers release the ball in an upright seam position, as it doesn't wobble much after the release, and it helps the spinners grip the ball better and also get purchase off the pitch because the seam enables the ball to grip the surface.

The SG Test ball doesn't swing much when it's new but as soon as one side (half) of the ball becomes shinier than the other, it starts swinging appreciably. The good thing for the bowlers is that the shine lasts longer and hence helps both the quicker bowlers as well as the slower ones. The quicker men get swing in the air and the slower bowlers get the essential drift.

Though the Kookaburra ball also has a pronounced seam, it fades away rather quickly. The new ball does all kinds of things in the air and off the surface but once the seam gets embedded in the surface (which happens too quickly for the bowlers' liking), it ceases to move quite as much. The lack of a pronounced seam not only makes it difficult for spinners to grip the ball but it also denies them purchase off the surface because the ball, instead of gripping the turf, just skids along. Finger spinners are the worst hit in this case and hence have to put a lot of revolutions (we call it work) on the ball to get something off the track. Wrist spinners face no such problem as they don't rely on the seam to grip the surface to get the desired amount of spin. One can always put more work on the ball with the wrist as compared to the fingers.

Now, there's a particular way to bowl with different balls. The faster bowlers who release the ball instead of hitting the deck are fairly successful with the SG Test ball. Since the shine stays for longer and so does the pronounced seam, the ball swings and seams the whole day if one can release the ball with an upright seam on a regular basis.

On the contrary, the Kookaburra ball doesn't swing even half as much once it gets old. One must hit the surface hard to get something out of it. The typical swing bowlers are easy picking as the ball doesn't do much in the air or off the surface once it loses its shine.

In this blog, I've tried to explain the basic difference in the two different brands of balls used in Indian cricket. Now, how much of it has helped i.e. has it helped and how is it handled at the ground level... I shall tell you some interesting facts and tales about that in the next post.

Till then, goodbye.

P.S. I wanted to share a small detail with you guys. The reviews of my book Beyond the Blues are out and the initial signs are very encouraging, almost all of them have written good things about the book. I'm assuming that it's true. Tx.

Former India opener Aakash Chopra is the author of Out of the Blue, an account of Rajasthan's 2010-11 Ranji Trophy victory.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/conte ... 14304.html