If you had a Time Machine?

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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Mick180461 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:22 am

Mick180461 wrote:
Paddles wrote:
When did sightscreens become the norm? Those early low scores are curious as the likes of Trumper put up some huge scores as well, presumably on non rain effected pitches. But the medium pace spin and its sucess did not die till post O'Reiley even excluding the later sticky specialists like Derek Underwood. I'd love to see all these guys bowl on modern BCCI prepared pitches.

You want to know how good O'Reilly would have been in India just look at Kumble, he's the modern equiv. Can't help with the Sightscreen question.

Can you please explain to me My mentally retarded self how this post got turned into a discussion on Barnes v O'Reilly. My reply to Misty was about comparing O'Reilly & Kumble on Indian Wkts, then somehow you turned into a discussion about O'Reilly & Barnes.

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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Boycs » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:29 am

You replied to misty, there was your mistake :P

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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Misty » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:03 pm

BoyCaught30 wrote:You replied to misty, there was your mistake :P


I talked with Paddles not other person regarding Barnes the great

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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Paddles » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:11 pm

Mick180461 wrote:
Mick180461 wrote:You want to know how good O'Reilly would have been in India just look at Kumble, he's the modern equiv. Can't help with the Sightscreen question.

Can you please explain to me My mentally retarded self how this post got turned into a discussion on Barnes v O'Reilly. My reply to Misty was about comparing O'Reilly & Kumble on Indian Wkts, then somehow you turned into a discussion about O'Reilly & Barnes.


Read.
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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Paddles » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:17 pm

Mick180461 wrote:
Paddles wrote:My apologies to poking fun at the apparently cerebrally challenged Mick. I'll take it easier on him from now on when he learns to to lay off the ad hominem fallacy and actually reads and comprehends posts before replying. In the meantime however. I'm content to shoot down his posts, like Annie Oakley could shoot fish in a barrel.

You haven't effectively shot down a post yet, only think you have.

:lmao:
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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Paddles » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:18 pm

BoyCaught30 wrote:
Paddles wrote:My apologies to poking fun at the apparently cerebrally challenged Mick.


Paddles wrote:I'll take it easier on him from now on when he learns to to lay off the ad hominem fallacy


......


:dance:
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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Paddles » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:23 pm

Mick180461 wrote:
Paddles wrote:

Well I don't know if Sir Don never saw SF Barnes in person, but as I said

"O'Reilly was brought into the debate with SF Barnes but none other than Don Bradman, who concluded that because O'Reilley had the googly, he was better than Barnes".

Do you even read?

The last time Barnes was in Australia was in 1911, so Bradman may have toddled of to the SCG to warch him as 3yo but it's unlikely. One thing about Barnes on the 1913-14 tour of SA, the tests were played on Matting wickets, which Barnes would have been the perfect bowler to exploit.
Barnes & O'Reilly were truely great bowlers but in different eras, playing on different wkts against different batsman so really is pointless trying to compare them. One other thing the arts of bowling in Barnes's time is highly unlikely just to have been forgotten within a 20 year period as you have suggested, there was bowlers who played in 1900 still playing 1930, more likely that there was an improvement in pitches which made their style of bowling less afective.


Uhmm - medium pace spin, when do you think Derek Underwood played exactly? Read. If you're excluding him, why? He bowled medium pace, he bowled spin. Just due to his superior prowess on sticky wickets where he cranked up his pace even more, or cos he often, at least at the back end of his career cut from a seam up position on sticky wickets? Perhaps he merely wanted the extra pace or control over the ball's pitching at the extra pace with the change of delivery style?? He bowled on dry surfaces too and everything in between. "Whatever the weather, whatever the day, he had the ball for it: 2465 first-class wickets at 20.28 tell his story" (Jon Hotten on D Underwood). But Its not as though spin bowlers unionized in 1910 and decided to no longer bowl spin at medium pace. Why then are you excluding Tiger from being medium pace spin discussion? He bowled mediumish leg spin after 1910, certainly at a pace to bare comparison with SF Barnes on the topic of medium pace spin, as many fans and commentators have done so previously and still do. They also talk of Underwood in the discussions too. Not Kumble, though - he's a bit slower to compare. If you think we're all wrong - say so. Be bold - but give your reason.

Just because the art of a bowler is not forgotten does not mean the subsequent bowlers can replicate its success or their quality. Comprehend. West Indian pacemen have fizzled since their impressive and full barrage of Andy Roberts to C Walsh of various fast bowler types. Not subsequent style copying has been that effective of any of Holding, Garner, Marshall or Ambrose. But a long list of comparitive medocrity. Globally there has been, just not for the West Indies so lets look where global standards have slipped recently.

Who's the new off or even finger spinner of Murali type and quality? Herath is as not a good finger spinner as Murali. Jadeja is #1 right now. Surely not him. Nor Ashwin (outside Asia disappointments plague him so). Is Yasir Shah the new leg spinner of SK Warne quality? Is he good enough to compare? Will there be a steady supply of leg spinners at such a great level or will their success fade. Will their success fade due to modern pitches, less batsman surprise with video analysis or inferior bowling quality attempting execution?

Read. Comprehend. Think. Reply. There's more variables at play for arts that have a difficult degree of execution to perform well with (if leg spinning isn't already difficult enough to master - to then do it at 125kmh) than just pitch surfaces which we have discussed already and medium pace spin did not die with SF Barnes. It is commonly held to have died with Underwood at test level (who was a demon on sticky wickets) who bowled the simpler to execute orthodox finger spin as against the higher difficulty leg break (chinaman if he had as a leftie). But I and many find Tiger and SF Barnes sharing enough similarities as to be leg spin medium pacers, so isolating SF Barnes pitch conditions to the death of the art is nonsense when Tiger still thrived later. Unless covered pitches is the end and no more sticky wickets - as observed by noone since Derek Underwood. Well thats a long time after 1910 and SF Barnes.

Do you know why medium pace spin with high revs is deadly? The ball swings in flight before spinning in the counter direction off the pitch. And this swing is not reliant on normal orthodox swing variables - its the drift all slow spin bowlers get, see magnus effect, at a faster pace. With over spin - the ball dips and bounces more sharply. The degree of over spin influences pitching and bounce height. Now tell me how modern pitches negates this varying bounce, swing, and spin off pitch, from being effective? Pitches still take spin, especially BCCI ones. Mustafizur's cutter is biting on most pitches played on so far. The variable swing, the variable turn, the variable pace, he could be the bowler who inspires the next SF Barnes, OReilley or Underwood to bowl medium pace spin as a stock delivery. Perhaps you're not aware of fast medium bowler Mustafizur or his success with his bowling slower ball cutter on todays modern pitches. Perhaps you want to dismiss him as a fast medium pacer who bowls a cutter. Or maybe, there is a whole art form of cricket bowling, nearly forgotten if not extinct that will see a large revival based on the success of some self taught Bangladeshi kid who bowled a cutter as a slower ball with a "flappy wrist" getting revolutions on the ball and bamboozles the best batsmen in the world regularly where a new generation will use a "cutter slower ball" as their stock ball as either leg or off spin with all sorts of variations such as an arm ball like Mustafizurs regular delivery. Might pay to drop a yard or 3 of pace to get the most out of turning pitches in say sub continent. Point is - if Mustafizur gets bite off the modern pitches today at his presumably much higher pace, SF Barnes types will too, making modern pitches far less likely totally explaining the death of the art. (Mustafizur and SF Barnes may in fact be very comparable in pace). I believe that its just bloody difficult to bowl effectively due to the high degree of difficulty of execution and this is as more likely a factor as modern covered pitches producing less sticky wickets. "All too complicated, just bowl medium fast in the off stump channel on a good length with occassional bouncer." Sticky and poorly prepared wickets no doubt made poorer executors of medium pace spin more effective just like dustbowls often make crap to average spinners more deadly with all the more turn available, but thats all relative. Covered and prepared pitches still permit turning balls, some more than others. Ball still swings to magnus effect, tho. Ball still bounces off the pitch.

Anyway - I'd like to see more SF Barnes (and OReilley) high quality footage of medium pace spin on sticky and non - sticky wickets. And I eagerly wait what is sown from Mustifizur's impact on cricket seeds in the hybrid of medium pace and spinning the ball. And if you think Mustafizur is only cutting the ball - from cricinfo - "This was when Mustafizur started to develop the left-armer's offcutter, which was delivered as a spinner does but with the added ability of making it carry to the wicketkeeper standing back." - its medium pace spin. And he has a whole arsenal of variations of cutters, that he uses often in conjunction with his fast medium stock ball:

"In the ninth over, Williamson stepped out, allowed for enough width between his arms and the ball going away from him, and carted it over wide-long-off for four. Mustafizur responded with a brace of cutters: first up was the slower one, which Williamson, attempting to hit down the ground, missed. The next ball, Williamson gave himself room again, but this time Mustafizur bowled it faster and Williamson had to bring his bat down in a hurry. Last ball, the batsman went right across the stumps to try to paddle the ball behind square, but Mustafizur bowled a fuller, slower one that dipped on him and knocked back his off stump."http://www.espncricinfo.com/awards2016/content/story/1078390.html
Last edited by Paddles on Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:28 am, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Tomstar123 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:52 pm

I would go to see Don Bradman 270 against England.

Seems thought it's a time machine I would then go to the future to see Trescothic's last Somerset game and go absolutely mental every-time he scored a run.

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Re: If you had a Time Machine?

Postby Misty » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:21 pm

Tomstar123 wrote:I would go to see Don Bradman 270 against England.

Seems thought it's a time machine I would then go to the future to see Trescothic's last Somerset game and go absolutely mental every-time he scored a run.

Shewag's 254 at multan Pakistan