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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:30 am
by raja
This is supposed to be a good-natured forum, where we all have fun discussing stuff, pulling each other's leg - but nothing mean or hurtful.
Hopefully we can keep it that way. Difference of opinion is normal - and often makes for good discussion, as long as it doesn't degenerate into ad hominem attacks.

Hopefully this spat between GS and Paddles is just that - a spat and nothing more.
I'd like to see both of them active on the forum - as it is, we have very few active members here.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:52 am
by Boycs
I'm staying out of it. I like both of them as posters

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:27 pm
by Katto
Boycs wrote:I'm staying out of it. I like both of them as posters


you would get involved if it were me though :nana:

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:45 pm
by Boycs
Katto wrote:
Boycs wrote:I'm staying out of it. I like both of them as posters


you would get involved if it were me though :nana:


Oh katto you're my favourite one of all

Do miss lungi though he was amusing.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:23 pm
by Boycs
Did Jim Laker and Tony Lock bowl much together?

Also trying to think who Alec Bedser may have bowled with.

Statham? Or are they different eras. Having a mind blank.

Edit: just checked, bedser was earlier but there were four years of a overlap.

Statham then partnered up with Trueman of course

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:51 am
by Going South
Those players who participated in IPL auction but got unsold says a lot about market perception of their wicket taking ability under pressure. just saying ;)

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:29 am
by raja
Seeing a mention of IPL in a Classic Cricket thread made me wince just a bit. :-)

From yesteryear, mostly from my childhood readings, some partnerships I recall (top of head) are
Ted McDonald-Jack Gregory (limited though, largely 1921)
Larwood-Voce
Martindale-Constantine (also limited, largely 1935)
Lindwall-Miller
Ramadhin-Valentine (spin pair)
Heine-Adcock
Bedser-Trueman
Trueman-Statham
Trueman-Tyson (also limited)
Hall-Griffith (and some Hall-Gilchrist early on)
McKenzie-Connolly
Thomson-Lillee

Interestingly, I can't seem to recall partnerships with leading bowlers like Snow. I think after Trueman retired, and before Willis came on the scene, Snow was England's lone, reliable quick. Ken Higgs has fantastic stats but somehow I don't remember reading about Snow-Higgs as a pairing.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:19 am
by Paddles
Grimmet and O'Reilly

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:00 am
by Katto
was it Sobers that implied that Statham was a chucker?

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:06 am
by Going South

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:30 am
by Boycs
118 in 11 tests is pretty ridiculous.

Didn't philander get to 50 and 100 in a record or joint-record number of matches?

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:30 am
by Boycs
raja wrote:Seeing a mention of IPL in a Classic Cricket thread made me wince just a bit. :-)

From yesteryear, mostly from my childhood readings, some partnerships I recall (top of head) are
Ted McDonald-Jack Gregory (limited though, largely 1921)
Larwood-Voce
Martindale-Constantine (also limited, largely 1935)
Lindwall-Miller
Ramadhin-Valentine (spin pair)
Heine-Adcock
Bedser-Trueman
Trueman-Statham
Trueman-Tyson (also limited)
Hall-Griffith (and some Hall-Gilchrist early on)
McKenzie-Connolly
Thomson-Lillee

Interestingly, I can't seem to recall partnerships with leading bowlers like Snow. I think after Trueman retired, and before Willis came on the scene, Snow was England's lone, reliable quick. Ken Higgs has fantastic stats but somehow I don't remember reading about Snow-Higgs as a pairing.


None of the Indian spin quartet get a mention?

Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:39 am
by Going South
oh. raja just hates indians.

ps: finest bowling pair does not mean finest fast bowling pair alone. A work horse spin duo can make a great bowling pair for bowling over after over hardwork for days unlike fast bowlers who can do only spells in short bursts esp on subcontinent pitches.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:32 am
by Boycs
True but I think there is a certain image of a spinner as a lone worker, the only master of his craft in the team, working alongside - yet somehow aloof from - his rock breaking, stick throwing fast bowler colleagues.

The seamers build their mud huts, while the spinner looks up at them occasionally from his papers where, with quill and ink, he is designing a revolutionary flying machine or drawing the Vitruvian Man :D

So I guess you don't think of two spinners operating in tandem as much. It's certainly less common compared to fast bowlers hunting in packs. England have only really done it in that Indian got a few years back, in recent times. Before Swann and Monty teaming up I guess you have to look back to Laker, Lock, Underwood or something? Don't know if they had regular partners that they bowled with. I can recall Surrey had a deadly spinning twosome but can't recall the exact composition at the moment.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:30 pm
by Boycs
Just starting reading a biography of Larwood, as it happens. I liked the anecdote by I think Fingleton "I got my bat straight in a defensive shot, Larwood was running in, and just before he was about to bowl the delivery something thudded into the middle of my bat. It was the ball."

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:53 pm
by raja
Paddles wrote:Grimmet and O'Reilly

Yes, that too.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:54 pm
by raja
Laker & Lock were definitely a hunting pair together.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:03 pm
by raja
Oh, of course the Indian quartet. :-)
I mentioned Chandra-Bedi in the very first post of this thread.
Bedi-Prasanna also did well, esp in the late 60s when Chandra was injured and returned only against England in the summer of 1971.
Venkat was a good bowler too, bowled a tight line and length, didn't give much away.
Just that after a very successful start to his career, he began flighting it less - and took less wickets too.
Prasanna was notorious for not being afraid to flight the ball - he would tempt the batsman to take him on but would deceive the batsman in flight.
Bedi also used to flight the ball a lot.
Chandra of course bowled his legbreaks and googlies at a good pace - often quicker than the "quicks" in the side.
Much like the master in an earlier era, Bill O'Reilly.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:04 pm
by raja
Going South wrote:oh. raja just hates indians.

:grin:
No, I don't.
I just happened to forget the spin quartet.

That reminds me, Kumble-Harbhajan also must have scalped quite a few together.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:39 pm
by Going South
Boycs wrote:True but I think there is a certain image of a spinner as a lone worker, the only master of his craft in the team, working alongside - yet somehow aloof from - his rock breaking, stick throwing fast bowler colleagues.

The seamers build their mud huts, while the spinner looks up at them occasionally from his papers where, with quill and ink, he is designing a revolutionary flying machine or drawing the Vitruvian Man :D

So I guess you don't think of two spinners operating in tandem as much. It's certainly less common compared to fast bowlers hunting in packs. England have only really done it in that Indian got a few years back, in recent times. Before Swann and Monty teaming up I guess you have to look back to Laker, Lock, Underwood or something? Don't know if they had regular partners that they bowled with. I can recall Surrey had a deadly spinning twosome but can't recall the exact composition at the moment.

man. you tend to forget cricket is global sport. it's played not just in england or australia where they play just one spinner. open your eyes. broaden your horizons. look to south asia. for the past 50 years all south asian teams sport not one but 3 spinners (2 genuine & one alrounder) for EVERY fkking test match. spinners take up whopping 70% of work load of bowling zillion overs, THE REAL WORK HORSES. slap. wake up !!!

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:37 pm
by Boycs
GS you are again incorrect. The Indian team doesn't play cricket. It plays T20

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:17 pm
by Going South
ha. nice try. they just won over srilanka white washed. winning lanka in lanka one should be really good. they are #1 ranked now. jealous ? eh? ;)

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:38 pm
by Boycs
Going South wrote:ha. nice try. they just won over srilanka white washed. winning lanka in lanka one should be really good. they are #1 ranked now. jealous ? eh? ;)


On a serious note, how different are the conditions? I know Indian conditions actually vary, weather/climate wise, depending on where in India you play. But I imagine that Sri Lanka is not hugely different from southern Indian Test grounds?

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:41 pm
by Going South
srilanka is more dry place compared to india as it's nearer to equator. it's more spin friendly wicket. Not many visiting teams won in srilanka if you check history. white wash is very very rare.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:16 am
by Paddles
Boycs wrote:
Going South wrote:ha. nice try. they just won over srilanka white washed. winning lanka in lanka one should be really good. they are #1 ranked now. jealous ? eh? ;)


On a serious note, how different are the conditions? I know Indian conditions actually vary, weather/climate wise, depending on where in India you play. But I imagine that Sri Lanka is not hugely different from southern Indian Test grounds?


Bollocks.

Indian pitches turn sideways when the Anglos of Safrica, NZ, Aus and England arrive. They are fast and bouncy with seam movement when Sri Lanka and Bangladesh arrive. That recent one off Banga test in India had the ball carrying through like it was Perth in the 1980s.

And Pakistan who have both spinners and fast bowlers with competent batsmen in all conditions are banned.

Kolkata went from a dustbowl to a seamers paradise in the ipl this year when they bought a new pace attack. New pace attack meant new pitch surfaces.

Indian pitches are made to suit. Just like Englands and Australias (bar Sydney). But they really push the boat out far with day 1 bunsen burners. Safrica could produce big turning pitches if they wanted, but they don't. But to be honest - I wish NZ did the same. The level of pitch preparation to suit home team is the issue - not the principle. In my opinion, NZ ought to have played Safrica on turning wickers at home, and lush swing n seam for teams like Aussie and Asian teams. WI's weakness is roads I imagine given their frail batting strength.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:32 am
by raja
Spinners:

Ashwin - Jadeja; : 26 Tests, 159 wickets, 22.79
Muralitharan - Herath : 15 Tests, 90 wickets, 22.85
Grimmett - O'Reilly: 15 Tests, 88 wickets, 20.85
Kumble - Harbhajan: 54 Tests, 281 wickets, 28.36
Laker - Lock: 24T, 114W, 15.87
Bedi - Chandra: 42T, 184W, 27.22
Qadir - Qasim: 23T, 98W, 25.79
Bedi - Prasanna: 43T, 169W, 29.04
Ramadhin - Valentine: 29T, 113W, 30.04
Bedi - Venkat: 36T, 139W, 29.23
Mankad - Gupte: 22T, 70W, 35.55
Prasanna - Chandra: 28T, 84W, 35.54
Edmonds - Emburey: 21T, 47W, 37.19
---------------------------------
Lillee - Thomson: 26T - 119W - 26.26
Imran Khan - Sarfaraz Nawaz: 35T, 155W, 25.18
Holding - Marshall 33T, 129W, 25.27
Holding - Roberts 30T, 116W, 26.09
Holding - Garner 40T, 161W, 23.60
Holding - Croft 16T, 78W, 20.17
Marshall - Garner 36T, 170W, 22.02

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:04 am
by Katto
should we judge purely on averages? what about strike rates? what about victories?

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:09 am
by raja
Victories are tricky to judge on.
So much goes into a victory that isn't attributable to just one pair.
What if it's a terrific pair but they are part of a horrible batting line-up?
Like Lyon-Agar now.
Or they're a mediocre pairing but part of a terrific batting line-up?
Like Kumble-Harbhajan, or Ashwin-Jadeja.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:11 am
by Katto
raja wrote:Victories are tricky to judge on.
So much goes into a victory that isn't attributable to just one pair.
What if it's a terrific pair but they are part of a horrible batting line-up?
Like Lyon-Agar now.
Or they're a mediocre pairing but part of a terrific batting line-up?
Like Kumble-Harbhajan, or Ashwin-Jadeja.


:lol: surely you troll

seriously though, a good average can be attained by playing a high number of tests against a poor batting line up in favourable conditions

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:24 am
by raja
Then we need to go one level deeper at least.
To start with, I'd say, look at home/away. For this purpose, the entire subcontinent should be considered "home", for all subcontinent players.
(That should take care of Ashwin-Jadeja).

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:42 am
by Katto
I think all spinners struggle with the different speeds and lengths you have to bowl on different continents - and even different surfaces on the same continents. Some of them work it out eventually later in their careers.

I dont think there has been a single spinner in my memory that batsmen in Australia feared getting out to whilst playing in Australia.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:17 am
by Boycs
Apart from Warne

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:03 am
by Katto
Boycs wrote:Apart from Warne


yeah I meant to be referring to Australian batsmen in internationals

but that also holds true for domestic cricket

maybe Saqlain Mushtaq was the best I've seen tour here

Australian spinners know how best to exploit the conditions here is the point

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:29 pm
by Going South
why should it be 2 fast bowlers or 2 spinners?

i vote for warne & mcgrath.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:29 pm
by Boycs
Well if we're just going to entertain any old nonsense then we may as well start pairing an amateur with a professional!!! :shock:



Image
Lord Hawke says: Jeez, GS. Get a grip!

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:16 pm
by raja
Katto wrote:I think all spinners struggle with the different speeds and lengths you have to bowl on different continents - and even different surfaces on the same continents. Some of them work it out eventually later in their careers.

I dont think there has been a single spinner in my memory that batsmen in Australia feared getting out to whilst playing in Australia.


Erapalli Prasanna?

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:12 pm
by Going South
warne & mcgrath pair is nonsense? hmmm

i thought u knew cricket ! huh.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:54 pm
by Boycs
Going South wrote:warne & mcgrath pair is nonsense? hmmm

i thought u knew cricket ! huh.


I think I was being humerous

Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:58 pm
by Going South
it sure flew over my dumb brian. can't wait to go home.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:45 pm
by Boycs
Why, where are you?

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:14 pm
by Going South
work. exhausted. now home. ahhhhh

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:42 am
by Mick180461
McDonald & Gregory
Ambrose & Walsh
Wasim & Waqar.
Muralitheran & Vaas.
Willis & Botham
Donald & Pollock
Steyn & Phillander
McGrath & Gillespie

Tony Lock is famous for perhaps the most iconic 1 wkt in a match performance in history at Manchester in 1956 his partner took the other 19.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:14 pm
by Daanav
I feel that the best new ball bowling pair were Ray Lindwall and Keith Miller of Oz. Both their careers started late due to WW2 and that is a massive handicap for fast bowlers. Yet they did very well into their 30s.

The West Indies played very little international cricket in the 1930s but they had a fearsome new ball pair in Leslie Hylton and Manny Martindale. Many experts including John Arlott reckoned that they would have run riot through batsmen of a later generation.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:07 pm
by Paddles
Daanav wrote:I feel that the best new ball bowling pair were Ray Lindwall and Keith Miller of Oz. Both their careers started late due to WW2 and that is a massive handicap for fast bowlers. Yet they did very well into their 30s.

The West Indies played very little international cricket in the 1930s but they had a fearsome new ball pair in Leslie Hylton and Manny Martindale. Many experts including John Arlott reckoned that they would have run riot through batsmen of a later generation.


Miller barely bowled. He just took the new ball as the luxurious allrounder I sense which inflates his stats when compared to a 4 prong attack or any bowler who carries/leads the attack. Alan Davidson with Lindwall would be a better pair.

Miller is a damn fine and legendary all-rounder, though. That is quite some seam attack Aus had in the 1950's.

Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:06 am
by bolero
Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis.

I remember they used to be devastating V/s New Zealand in NZ. Dont know their record as a pair against other teams.