Which is the finest bowling pair?

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Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby raja » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:34 pm

Ok, this is an old article which I just happened to chance on now.
How did I miss this?

Just loved reading it. Especially the Chandra-Bedi part. :-)

Quite like the Marshall-Holding bit too. When written by a batsman who faced them (or as in the Chandra-Bedi case, written by a keeper who kept to them), the piece becomes even more valuable.

http://www.thecricketmonthly.com/story/ ... wling-pair

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:48 pm

Who is akram's other side best bowler?

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Katto » Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:56 pm

Johnson & Harris were awesome for a couple of years

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby raja » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:04 pm

Going South wrote:Who is akram's other side best bowler?

Waqar

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby raja » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:06 pm

This is a 2014 piece.

When Anderson-Broad retire, they will also be spoken of in this breath.
Fantastic pair.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Boycs » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:23 pm

Yeah I concur with that

Donald and pollock in there?

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby squarecut » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:58 pm

Fantastic Read !

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:10 pm

Ashwin & jadeja

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby raja » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:19 pm

Going South wrote:Ashwin & jadeja

:lmao: :lolup:

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Leo » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:09 am

1. Wasim - Waqar
2. Walsh - Ambrose
3. Donald - Pollock
Time is the Best Speaker

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Boycs » Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:13 am

I think Thompson would let lillee down in the running for this title, for all his raw pace he was wild and more inconsistent where lillee was just an awesome bowler

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Aneesmoha » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:27 am

Leo wrote:1. Wasim - Waqar
2. Walsh - Ambrose
3. Donald - Pollock


Agree with 1 and 2

3 I do not. Donald and Pollock weren't even South Africa's best bowling partnership for that i would have to say Mike Proctor and Peter Pollock (who were quicker and more aggressive than both).

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Boycs » Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:28 am

Ishant sharma and sreesanth come to mind

If the question was biggest pair of talentless egotistical cricketers to take the new ball

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:27 pm

My research pick the pair of ntini & Nicky boje

When Kumar Sangakkara and Mahela Jayawardene shared their world-record partnership of 624 against South Africa, Nicky Boje set a record for the highest number of runs conceded without taking a wicket. The South African slow left-armer Nicky Boje had figures of 0 for 221 from 65 overs in that record-breaking match in Colombo in July 2006.

http://m.espncricinfo.com/srilanka/engi ... 49193.html

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby crickofluv » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:00 pm

Anytime Anil Kumble and Zaheer Khan India

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Leo » Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:01 am

Aneesmoha wrote:
Leo wrote:1. Wasim - Waqar
2. Walsh - Ambrose
3. Donald - Pollock


Agree with 1 and 2

3 I do not. Donald and Pollock weren't even South Africa's best bowling partnership for that i would have to say Mike Proctor and Peter Pollock (who were quicker and more aggressive than both).


Actually I didn't watch them to play. So . . . . :)

4. Mcgrath - Warne
5. Vaas - Muralitharan
6. Kumble - Harbhajan
7. Amir - Asif (Most people will not like it as they are . . . . :P)
Time is the Best Speaker

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Mick180461 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:33 am

McGrath & Warne.
Ambrose & Walsh
Hadlee & Chatfield
Murulitharan & Vaas
The 3rd ones will raise some eyebrows, but Chatfield was impossible to score off and allowed Hadlee to attack flat out, he was the perfect foil for Hadlee.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby raja » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:36 am

Good to see Chatfield get a mention.
He was a quiet performer - that he's probably best-known for that Peter Lever incident, says a lot about his rather low profile.
But yes, he was a very useful foil for Hadlee, who attacked and got loads of wickets at the other end.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Boycs » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:03 am

See? I told you. And when I picked him everyone laughed....

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Misty » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:43 am

Lillee and Thompson
Bedi and Prasana ( in Asia and in NZ)
Waqar -Wasim

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Misty » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:46 am

Marshall - Roberts Andy

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Boycs » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:16 am

Did Marshall have any children? Those genes deserved to be passed on before we were robbed of him.

If he did I wonder if they got into cricket

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Katto » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:49 pm

Misty wrote:Marshall - Roberts Andy


they didnt play together that much. Roberts was on the way out when Marshall entered the scene.

I think Marshall-Holding or Marshall Garner

was never really a pair in those days, the Windies had 3 or 4 guns with Garner, Walsh and/or Croft

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Misty » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:45 pm

Probably
Croft-Garner
Ambrose-walsh

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Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:02 pm


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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby raja » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:18 pm



Need to qualify that as "in home conditions".

Overseas, they're toast. :grin:

Ask Steve Smith - he had them for breakfast, lunch and dinner the last time they toured Australia. :grin:

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:06 am

Chatfield?! A Hadlee Chatfield ODI combo was great, but for test cricket? Chatfield only just edges Lance Cairns.

Believe it or not, I believe that the stats suggest NZ's best bowling pair since colour tv, is Vettori with Bond. Vettori's average drastically tumbles when he got to play tests with Bondy and the two shared in contributing some success for NZC, albeit in Bond's all too brief international career.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Boycs » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:49 am

I wonder if the decline of the WI team serves to further elevate the Ambrose-Walsh pair in contrast to the Holding/Roberts/Marshall partnerships who were part of an overall successful team.

And stop slating my draft pick of the century, Chatfield :P

To be fair suggesting Bond and Vitori doesn't surprise me much. Both very good bowlers.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:06 am

Boycs wrote:I wonder if the decline of the WI team serves to further elevate the Ambrose-Walsh pair in contrast to the Holding/Roberts/Marshall partnerships who were part of an overall successful team.

And stop slating my draft pick of the century, Chatfield :P

To be fair suggesting Bond and Vitori doesn't surprise me much. Both very good bowlers.

Re Ambrose and Walsh, it does but Ambrose started in 1988 when Marshall was at his peak. Walsh started when Garner and Holding were playing still. Further, there was Patterson and the ridiculously talented but oft injured Ian Bishop into the 90s. Bishop retired 1998. By 2000 they were a 2 man ship, post Benjamins et al but not from the 80s when they started.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Katto » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:19 am

Paddles wrote:Chatfield?! A Hadlee Chatfield ODI combo was great, but for test cricket? Chatfield only just edges Lance Cairns.

Believe it or not, I believe that the stats suggest NZ's best bowling pair since colour tv, is Vettori with Bond. Vettori's average drastically tumbles when he got to play tests with Bondy and the two shared in contributing some success for NZC, albeit in Bond's all too brief international career.


Chatfield was a good ODI bowler- forget tests, he was a support act at best.
Hadlee was a one man show in the mid 80's. He took 26 wickets in the two matches they won here. Thats more than Lyon has gotten in Bangladesh to put that dominance in perspective.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:36 am

Interestingly noone has said Steyn and Philander as yet.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:58 am

Paddles wrote:Interestingly noone has said Steyn and Philander as yet.

no.
steyn and M morkel makes a greater bowling pair. they had the saffer record together too.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:39 pm

Going South wrote:
Paddles wrote:Interestingly noone has said Steyn and Philander as yet.

no.
steyn and M morkel makes a greater bowling pair. they had the saffer record together too.


Lol.
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Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:26 pm

500+ wickets in 60 tests.
yes. it's a joke. on you.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:49 pm

Going South wrote:500+ wickets in 60 tests.
yes. it's a joke. on you.


Lol.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:41 pm

Steyn when playing with Philander; 35 matches:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/47492.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=46935;player_involve_type=all;template=results;type=bowling

Averages 21.31;

Philander when playing with Steyn;

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/46945.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=47154;template=results;type=bowling

averages 22.09;

Safrica win 20 (57%), lose 5 (14%) and draw 10 (29%)

Steyn when playing with Morkel; 61 matches:

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/47492.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=47289;template=results;type=bowling

Averages 22.27

Morkel when playing with Steyn;

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/46538.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;player_involve=47154;template=results;type=bowling

Averages 28.61

Safrica win 31 (51%) lose 13 (21%) and draw 28%.

Head to head; Morkel vs Philander - Philander has not only taken his wickets quicker and cheaper at 22.45 SR 48.3 to Morne's average of 29.01 SR 55.6; he has of course taken the new ball duties off Morne from the start of and duration of his career and shared this duty with Steyn, and relegated Morne to 3rd seamer at best when he and Steyn play together, or worse post Rabada and Abbott. Fortunately for Morne, injuries to Steyn and Abbott's shock retirement have permitted him to continue his test career after it was looking very bleak and saw him on the sidelines as recently as there tour of Australia despite being fit to play.

So the Steyn Morkel "partnership" - which hasn't shared the new ball much since 2011 and Vern's debut, only has additional matches on Steyn and Philander, that is greater longevity and a larger sample, but when Broad and Anderson crack 1000 wickets, they are not to me better than Walsh and Ambrose, they are not currently better than Akram and Younis, nor in the Willis with Botham nor Tyson and Trueman categories. All they have is more matches to have accumulated more wickets. So Lol.
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Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:40 am

hmmm
you forgot number of wickets together?
wonder why?
are they that bad ?ROFL

Wickets are bread and butter for test bowler unlike ODIs where averages and economy counts.
most wicket taking pair is the best pair NOT the best average pair or best economy rare pair.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby raja » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:51 am

Any idea how Pollock-Ntini went?
They played a lot together too, didn't they?

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:37 am

Going South wrote:hmmm
you forgot number of wickets together?
wonder why?
are they that bad ?ROFL

Wickets are bread and butter for test bowler unlike ODIs where averages and economy counts.
most wicket taking pair is the best pair NOT the best average pair or best economy rare pair.


Lol.

Not only did I deal with longevity -61 matches as against 35 matches - I even gave the Broad and Anderson example of why it is fallacious, as they could very well be the highest together in a few years, and have already gone past much superior bowling combos like Waqar and Wasim, Lillee and Thomas, and probably Ambrose and Walsh, just due tosheer volume of many more matches played together. If you rate bowlers just by wickets taken, ignoring averages, you get some very odd results: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bowlers_who_have_taken_300_or_more_wickets_in_Test_cricket such as Dan Vettori being better than Allan Donald. Ntini better than DK Lillee, Vaas as good as Lillee, James Anderson better than Waqar, Wasim, Khan, Malcolm Marshall and Hadlee, or Kapil Dev better than Hadlee.

Runs scored matters in test cricket. Runs given away in tests per wicket matters. If you don't think they do, then you do not understand the game, at all.

And for the record:

Steyn and Philander average 9.45 wickets per test together (158 Steyn at 21.31, 135 Philander at 22.09)
Steyn and Morkel average 8.46 wickets per test together (303 Steyn at 22.27, 213 Morkel at 28.61).

So Steyn and Philander take more wickets per test more cheaply than Steyn and Morkel.

Lol.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:07 am

are these career stats or your own selective peak years stats ?

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:16 am

Going South wrote:are these career stats or your own selective peak years stats ?


Lol.

They're career partnership stats.

Click the url(s) above.

I'm not suffering any moving any goal posts fallacy. If Steyn's peak, which it probably does, coincides with Philander playing, it just helps prove my point. Like Donald with Pollock and not Fani de Villiers, or Walsh with Ambrose and not Marshall or Holding. But the biggest point of difference is Philander's record as against Morkel. Its just totally superior, regardless of Steyn's peak.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Boycs » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:54 am

Morkel does seem to be perceived as the wing man to Steyn and then the wing man to Philander. Always seemed a bit unfair? He looked dangerous in the England series if I remember correctly.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:19 am

Boycs wrote:Morkel does seem to be perceived as the wing man to Steyn and then the wing man to Philander. Always seemed a bit unfair? He looked dangerous in the England series if I remember correctly.


Yet Safrica fell apart when Philander fell sick in 3rd test and was ill during 4th after his motm in 2nd test.

Morkel is the wingman to Steyn, Philander, Rabada and the retired Abbott, political selection elephants notwithstanding, on results.

Morkel is a fine bowler. But he's no atg like Steyn or new ball collusus like Philander.

I like Morkel with the white ball, but in fairness terms - most cricket fans would've wanted more Abbott in tests. I know I do.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:30 pm

that sounds a tad biased view. totally expected from you.

check this sample.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1168 ... -1st-Test/

when steyn and morkel are thundering to get 4 wickets each to get the win guess who got ZERO wickets ??? phil. ;) ;)

This news heading below says it all on who are the best pair.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/sri-lanka-v ... 62219.html

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:53 pm

Going South wrote:that sounds a tad biased view. totally expected from you.

check this sample.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1168 ... -1st-Test/

when steyn and morkel are thundering to get 4 wickets each to get the win guess who got ZERO wickets ??? phil. ;) ;)

This news heading below says it all on who are the best pair.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/sri-lanka-v ... 62219.html


Lol.

You choose 1 match, an example within a sample of 35 to try and prove a point? Post all 35 and see what happens ;) I have no intention of explaining basic statistics to you, nor can I be bothered to find a scorecard where McGill and Gillespie/Lee outbowled Mcgrath and Warne in 1 match to show how ridiculous your point is.

What's more, you fallaciously accuse me (via ad hominem) of an ad hominem fallacy of bias against me? What bias would I have to Morkel?

In my opinion, you're repeatedly illogical and your knowledge of cricket is repeatedly demonstrated to be lacking (from not understanding the preparation of cricket pitches nor understanding test bowling averages, you just don't understand cricket). This is not unsurprising from you.

So yet again you have managed to get personal, and I have responded in kind. I think it best I go back to ignoring your nonsense posts. From what I understand, you help pay the bills for this forum, and that makes you a moderator, good for you. But your conversations about cricket possibly help explain why there are so few regular members on this forum.

Put simply, I am not here to converse with you Going South and I do not enjoy our conversations. I find you both obtuse and ignorant in your misunderstandings of cricket. You don't even appear to have a grasp on the fundamentals of cricket through a lack of reason. If I must, I will bid farewell to Boycs, Raja et al and join a more cricket-informed forum.
Last edited by Paddles on Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Boycs » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:55 pm

Holder and Roach? lol they just took 9 between them to get England out. But Jimmy has just taken his 500th, in home conditions he really is amongst the greatest

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Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:40 pm

my way or high way eh? paddles you are so close minded ! you need be patient & open minded for a discussion & you got none it seems. you hand pick your stats to suit your whim but cant bear it when others do the same. you are not a sport. you get riled easy. laughable indeed.

morkel >>>>>> philander.

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Paddles » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:49 pm

Going South wrote:my way or high way eh? paddles you are so close minded ! you need be patient & open minded for a discussion & you got none it seems. you hand pick your stats to suit your whim but cant bear it when others do the same. you are not a sport. you get riled easy. laughable indeed.

morkel >>>>>> philander.


Lol.

You think that you have provided any stats at all? Have you offered any reason why my use of career partnership stats is not ideal? If you prefer peak to career stats, have you thought to crunch the numbers to see who comes out on top? Philander's poor 2014 and 15, will no doubt be offset by his incredible record breaking introduction into test cricket. His career peak, is just so much higher than Morkels as evidenced on cricinfo cricket summaries. Any good cricket fan knows how to find this data.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/46538.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling Morkel

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/46538.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling Philander

You will see that the career peak of Vernon, is his first 3 years where his results are just outstanding and that Morkel never gets close to these elite levels in any single year, let alone 3 consecutive years. So be it peak or career, Philander is comming out on top quite comfortably. Steyn, too, is playing better during his time with Philander than his overall career, 2012 notwithstanding - but his level of overall consistency is not significantly volatile enough to sway the result as against Philander and Morkel for best peak duo. But why would you prefer to use peak over overall career?

You have made an assertion that I have hand picked my stats? How is using the career partnership stats of Morkel and Steyn, and Steyn and Philander, indicative in any way of 'cherry picking'?

I am not here to teach you how to think and argue logically Going South, but here you go again with ad hominem and not dealing with the subject matter (topic of discussion) at hand. Then make the same bare assertion again (albeit you did provide details of 1 good match together above as proof against my 35 career match average which included that 1 particular match).

If this is how you wish to discuss things, I have no inclination to discuss anything with you.
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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Katto » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:41 am

meanwhile there are now 4 finger spinners in the top 10 bowlers including 3 in the top 5

does this say more about the kind of pitches being served up in the SC this decade or about the quality of the types of bowlers?

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Re: Which is the finest bowling pair?

Postby Going South » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:18 am

yawn