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Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:09 am
by raja
I found this an interesting list, considering I rate getting runs in England very highly.
England has almost always had a superb swing bowling attack - and, in bowler-friendly conditions (as they often get), they're a nightmare for the best of batsmen.

Of these, those whose average here is significantly higher than their career average, I rate much more highly than the others.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting

Conversely, those whose career average is significantly higher than their average in England, I'd put a question mark against.

Like
Ricky Ponting
Career average 51.85, average against England in England 44.10.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... e=allround

Greg Chappell
53.86 vs 40.80
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... e=allround

Sunil Gavaskar
51.12 vs 41.14
(though in his case, he was opener - and faced swing bowling in extremely bowler-friendly conditions, almost always with his back to the wall)
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... e=allround

Doug Walters (one of the most dramatic of them all)
48.26 vs 25.68 ; His struggle in English conditions was legendary
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... e=allround

Jacques Kallis
55.37 vs 35.33
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... e=allround

Is it possible to get a list of this sort automatically? I had to look for each of these individually - just thought up these names, top of head.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:26 am
by Boycs
Ask Steven?

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:09 pm
by raja
I was looking more at smart guys here on the forum.

From cricinfo stats, derive
a) <player's career average>
b) <player's average against England in Away games>
If a) - b) > 9.00, add to list...

Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 1:59 pm
by Going South
Is this stat fabricated just to exclude certain BCCI players? Mission accomplished!

Where is Sachin? Where is Dravid?

How do Pakistani greats fare?

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:42 am
by raja
Dravid is at No.5
Ganguly at 9.
Tendulkar, of GOAT fame, is not in the top 20....manages to slot in at 23.

People might have different takes on what constitutes tough batting conditions but I regard typical English conditions (favouring swing) as being amongst the toughest to bat on. England has always had good swing bowlers.

There's a reason Tendulkar did not have a particularly great county career with Yorkshire. This, despite his being celebrated as their first overseas player.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:31 am
by louie_db9
I assume Kohli will join this list once he gets the required number of runs.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:43 pm
by Boycs
Where does he sit currently?

Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:53 pm
by Going South
What's so great about England? That's nonsense if you single it out as barometer of skills. :puke:

You should make it for "away" stats if you are too headstrong not to consider Australia in Australia or srilanka in srilanka or India in India. These 3 are also equally tough to win, why should we single it out for England? Oh. If you are tendulkar hater that makes perfect sense. :puke:

I often hear high praise on laxman being greatest test batsman etc superlatives but what has he done great? Played good against one single team, Australia. That's it. So next time you talk any praise towards laxman just remember this and his dismal English record and say it out LOUD that LAXMAN SUCKS IN TEST CRICKET.

ROFL

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:10 pm
by louie_db9
BoyCaught30 wrote:Where does he sit currently?


Kohli averages 13.40 in England but has only made 134 runs there, so well short of the 500 runs barometer. Overall career average is 45.56

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:23 pm
by raja
louie_db9 wrote:
BoyCaught30 wrote:Where does he sit currently?


Kohli averages 13.40 in England but has only made 134 runs there, so well short of the 500 runs barometer. Overall career average is 45.56


Exhibit 1 -10000, for GS.

THIS is why I say batting in England, in conditions favouring swing, is a true barometer of batting.
Especially in these days, where batsmen are so well protected with their gear and traditionally pacey wickets (like Sabina Park and Perth) have become batting-friendly.

England have almost always, in their entire history, had quality swing bowling. Scoring runs against them has always been something special for me.

As for batting in Australia, piece of cake. Even the likes of Laxman and Tendulkar have managed it.

I agree that batting in South Africa is a challenge too. But a different sort, compared to England. Besides, since SA was out of cricket for 23 years, I prefer looking at England as a barometer.

The other challenge is batting in spin-friendly conditions, like in India and Sri Lanka. Maybe I'll put that up as another thread. But very often in India, we have seen dead wickets, not spin-friendly ones. And occasionally a fast track. Whereas in England it's either swing-friendly, or it's the occasional dead Oval wicket.

Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:03 pm
by Going South
Come on raja.
A good batsman should be able to play well on all kinds of pitches not just English pitches. Duh!

I rate those batsmen that can stand and deliver protecting their wickets on a mine field pitches. Remember that 3 day match on Mumbai deadly pitch? Every renowned batsman fell like pack of cards, only best defensive test players can live on such pitches. Think of bouncy South African pitches facing Allan Donald. That needs skills. Think of one dimensional Lankan pitches! Many a great batsmen failed on playing Lanka in Lanka.
How can you say that playing Australia in Australia is piece of cake? Have some respect for laxmans & tendulkars that stood tall and delivered where many "English" players have wet dream about. Playing good in England sure counts. But it's just a sample. An appetizer. You cannot count it as the whole meal. You got 8 course meal ahead one dish for each test playing nation proving different tastes that fill your stomach. Bon appetit. You talk as if fast bowling is the only bowling that's good for test cricket. Whoa. Spinner are the backbone of test cricket for the past 2 decades that got most wickets compared to tuk tuk fast bowlers that gave tiny spells and retire, where bulk of hard work is done by spinners. You just insulted all other bowlers that are not fast bowlers. :nono:

Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:32 pm
by Going South
Btw the highest run chase of 438 in ODI is not in subcontinent but its Johannesburg! So it's myth that subcontinent pitches alone are road pitches that support spinners alone that are batsmen friendly. Btw in that match no subcontinent rockstar FTBs played (saffers vs Aussies)
Yet, till date no one mentioned anything about that pitch or those batsmen called as FTBs. Wonder why? It's racist to "belittle" subcontinent pitches and it's fine all-weather batsmen. It's not their fault that there are no good fast bowlers from BCCI.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:37 am
by Misty
1976 SIR viv Richards hits 1710 runs in England including
189 not out and 291 in test, how you missed those 500 plus runs

how about pakistans number 3 ZAHEER ABBAS 2 innings in same series in England
240 and 274 = 514 in 2 innings

I bet Gordon Grrenidge hits 500 in England in test, what a player !

G.Smith and YOUHANA hits more than 500 with healthy averages in test in eng.
G smith,277 and 259 in 2003 series in successive test in England plus player of series awards for his batting in 2009 in England.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:00 am
by raja
All these players you mention, are on the list, Misty.
If you click on the first link of the opening post, you see them.

It's a bit shocking that Gavaskar had a Test average of only 41 in England.
Shows how tough it was in those days to get runs in those conditions.

Over the years, conditions have eased. You get some good batting wickets in England nowadays. Remember the Indian tours of 2002 and 2007?

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:06 am
by raja
GS, what you say is right - batting in spin-friendly conditions is as tough as batting in swing-friendly conditions.
I do have a lot of respect for batsmen who can play spin well.

Somehow, I've never rated batsmen getting runs in Australia.
The ball comes at a nice height to the bat in Australia - easy to put away.
And in general, Aussie wins at home have come more due to sheer dominance by the bat, than anything special with the ball, in my opinion.

This is very different from England, where it is often bowlers who've run through batsmen, on a day with overcast conditions.

Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:21 pm
by Going South
Again you are thinking of fast bowlers only. Think of those great batsman that bite the dust in the hands of warne in Australia. There are many English batsmen that shiver in their boots having nightmares of playing against warne in Australian pitches. I hear 708 cries!

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 6:00 pm
by Boycs
Yeah but that's more because it's Warne than it's Australia

I'd say it swings more in England than it spins in Australia

Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:00 pm
by Going South
BoyCaught30 wrote:I'd say it swings more in England than it spins in Australia

You must be watching too much of cricket themed porn.

Does a spinner need to be born in Australia to be successful on Australian pitches? Errr. There are some Indian/Pakistani/Lankan spinner that are successful in Australia.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:55 pm
by raja
Well, England wickets are prepared to assist swing conditions.
Warne got his wickets inspite of Aussie pitches, not because of them (except possibly for SCG).
Brisbane and Perth are anything but spinner-friendly.
MCG occasionally is.
And Adelaide is a belter - though a Warne did magic on a 5th day pitch.

In fact, like Boycs30 says, it is Warne more than Aussie pitches which need to get credit for those wickets.

When you think of swing conditions, you think of England.
When you think of spin-friendly conditions, you think of India/SL/Bangladesh.
When you think of bounce-friendly, you think of Australia and South Africa.

At least that is my layman take on this.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:16 pm
by Going South
But then why swing bowling is more important than spin or bouncy bowling or any other type of bowling so as to decide entire cricketing skill ranking to identify batting talent is my question !

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:17 am
by raja
Oh, we can do a similar analysis of Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Ind in Ind.
We can compare that with their career averages, to see how poorly they fared in India.
But I'm not sure that will truly reflect their weakness against spin.

As much as this exercise of runs in England suggests a weakness against playing swing bowling.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:28 am
by Boycs
I think it's important to remember that Pakistani Bangladeshi Sri Lankan players also grow up playing in sub continent conditions. But only England players grow up playing in English conditions.....

..... or South African conditions :)

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:40 pm
by Leg_Breaker
raja wrote:Dravid is at No.5
Ganguly at 9.
Tendulkar, of GOAT fame, is not in the top 20....manages to slot in at 23.

People might have different takes on what constitutes tough batting conditions but I regard typical English conditions (favouring swing) as being amongst the toughest to bat on. England has always had good swing bowlers.

There's a reason Tendulkar did not have a particularly great county career with Yorkshire. This, despite his being celebrated as their first overseas player.


Yes manlets don't fair well in English conditions...and Sachin is king of the manlet batters :unibrow:

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:24 pm
by louie_db9
Leg_Breaker wrote:
raja wrote:Dravid is at No.5
Ganguly at 9.
Tendulkar, of GOAT fame, is not in the top 20....manages to slot in at 23.

People might have different takes on what constitutes tough batting conditions but I regard typical English conditions (favouring swing) as being amongst the toughest to bat on. England has always had good swing bowlers.

There's a reason Tendulkar did not have a particularly great county career with Yorkshire. This, despite his being celebrated as their first overseas player.


Yes manlets don't fair well in English conditions...and Sachin is king of the manlet batters :unibrow:


His average in England is higher than his career average.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:09 pm
by Going South
Hahahaha. That's a SLAP. resounding.

Haters hate to check stats in their haste to spew hatred.

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:04 pm
by Boycs
There can't be that many players with higher away averages to home ones

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:48 am
by Leg_Breaker
louie_db9 wrote:
Leg_Breaker wrote:
Yes manlets don't fair well in English conditions...and Sachin is king of the manlet batters :unibrow:


His average in England is higher than his career average.


oh yes...his career average is a lot lot weaker than I thought....thanks for pointing that out :up: :thanx:

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:13 pm
by louie_db9
Leg_Breaker wrote:
louie_db9 wrote:
His average in England is higher than his career average.


oh yes...his career average is a lot lot weaker than I thought....thanks for pointing that out :up: :thanx:


No worries, always happy to help

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:18 pm
by Boycs
Oh don't worry, I'm quite a stats head but I've definitely not got a limited analytical ability :D

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:00 pm
by Leg_Breaker
BoyCaught30 wrote:Oh don't worry, I'm quite a stats head but I've definitely not got a limited analytical ability :D


My point was.....if the only thing you use to make a decision is a number on a page.....then that's a pretty narrow minded position to take.

You can be a stat head, and combine that with an analysis of all the other factors involved...to make an informed decision...that's all good. :up:

I will head over to cricket web or some other place, hopefully more civilised over there....delete this account with immediate effect please. :rj: :dance:

Adios :hatsoff:

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:54 am
by Going South
adios. good riddance

Re: Players who've got 500+ Test runs vs Eng in Eng

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:12 am
by Boycs
His account lasted 246532.56 seconds. That tells you everything you need to know.