Test cricket's last-minute arrival

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Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby raja » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:03 am

Old piece but I came across it only now.

What a wonderful read!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 76429.html

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Katto » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:38 am

history is often interesting

says a lot about the English class system at the time and the upper classes rather than the English in general

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Going South » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:56 pm

Nothing changed from then & now.

Is it Gavaskar that was denied entry into Lords?

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby raja » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:34 pm

Going South wrote:Nothing changed from then & now.

Is it Gavaskar that was denied entry into Lords?


Yes :grin:

He, in turn, refused knighthood. :grin:

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby raja » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:40 pm

Katto wrote:history is often interesting

says a lot about the English class system at the time and the upper classes rather than the English in general


We often discussed about whether Bangladesh was worthy of joining the Test arena.

But imagine that England didn't consider Australia worthy of playing against it, at a time when there wasn't any other international side in the game? They would rather play amongst themselves (county vs county) than play an Australian XI.

The piece talks about riots in Sydney during England's 1878 visit to Australia. Would like to know more about that. :-)

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Katto » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:16 pm

raja wrote:
Katto wrote:history is often interesting

says a lot about the English class system at the time and the upper classes rather than the English in general


We often discussed about whether Bangladesh was worthy of joining the Test arena.

But imagine that England didn't consider Australia worthy of playing against it, at a time when there wasn't any other international side in the game? They would rather play amongst themselves (county vs county) than play an Australian XI.

The piece talks about riots in Sydney during England's 1878 visit to Australia. Would like to know more about that. :-)


cricket was a gentleman's game

Australia was seen as a wild outpost full of convicts

in that regard not much has changed

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Going South » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:36 pm

Australia is worthy enough to play test cricket against England and have proven with many wins over decades.

Do you really think Bangladesh is worthy enough to play test cricket at Lords etc against England?
Now?
After 5 years?
After 10 years?
After 20 years?
After 100 years?
I don’t see light at the end of that tunnel.

Australia <> Bangladesh

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Paddles » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:42 am

Going South wrote:Australia is worthy enough to play test cricket against England and have proven with many wins over decades.

Do you really think Bangladesh is worthy enough to play test cricket at Lords etc against England?
Now?
After 5 years?
After 10 years?
After 20 years?
After 100 years?
I don’t see light at the end of that tunnel.

Australia <> Bangladesh


Of course Bangladesh is worthy enough. They're a valuable full member to global cricket, and if the big 3 don't look after the remaining top 10 teams, the sport will just disintegrate into a 3 country sport.

Now cricket survived for a long time as a bipartite sport, and maybe many English and Australian fans are happy with that to return. But it's not something I want to see for the sport.

Until Bangladesh and Afghanistan (incl SL here really too) get seamers worthwhile, they do suffer a problem of being Sena threats at home, but crap in Sena.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Katto » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:49 am

Going South wrote:Australia is worthy enough to play test cricket against England and have proven with many wins over decades.

Do you really think Bangladesh is worthy enough to play test cricket at Lords etc against England?
Now?
After 5 years?
After 10 years?
After 20 years?
After 100 years?
I don’t see light at the end of that tunnel.

Australia <> Bangladesh


one thing 1877 has in common with 2019, commercial considerations come into play

if Bangladesh can attract TV ratings and crowds then they'll be provided with more test cricket

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby raja » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:09 am

People are a function of their time, so if the English were snobs in the late 19th century in their attitude towards the Aussies, that's just a reflection of that time. Right until at least the 1950s, there was this attitude.

I think things began changing after that. The two wars had hurt England very badly. It lost many of its colonies. In fact, it began getting immigration from many of them. England began getting increasingly multi-racial, thus changing the very fabric of its society.

If we were to see a similar snobbish attitude today, that would be surprising.

It's no secret here that I enjoy seeing England lose.
But that's only in sport.

Outside sport, I do have a high regard for the English.

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Katto » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:32 am

raja wrote:People are a function of their time, so if the English were snobs in the late 19th century in their attitude towards the Aussies, that's just a reflection of that time. Right until at least the 1950s, there was this attitude.

I think things began changing after that. The two wars had hurt England very badly. It lost many of its colonies. In fact, it began getting immigration from many of them. England began getting increasingly multi-racial, thus changing the very fabric of its society.

If we were to see a similar snobbish attitude today, that would be surprising.

It's no secret here that I enjoy seeing England lose.
But that's only in sport.

Outside sport, I do have a high regard for the English.


you can't generalise the entire nation then nor now

you can more accurately generalise the classes... the snobbery is coming mainly from the upper and middle classes, and it still exists... the lower class see Australia as a place to live and escape squalor and terrorism

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Going South » Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:22 pm

A sporting contest makes sense only when both teams have atleast “some” chance of winning.

I see no such hope for Bangladeshi test cricket & believe that they are introduced to test cricket too early.
It’s like pushing a toddler to run a marathon and expect wonders.

What’s the point of conducting sports games between two totally unmatched teams where one team dominate other team with a very predictable pattern?

One off match is ok. But if you repeat the “charade” for more than a decade there is something seriously wrong. Bangladesh team got the test status in year 2000. They have never won over any big team. Let them first win over lankans and West Indians or Zimbabweans consistently and show that they are worthy then only think of them playing England at Lords etc.

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Katto » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:58 am

^this is a better trolling effort
more subtle with a trap inside (although I didn't fall for it)

keep up this sort of standard

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Paddles » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:18 am

Going South wrote:A sporting contest makes sense only when both teams have atleast “some” chance of winning.

I see no such hope for Bangladeshi test cricket & believe that they are introduced to test cricket too early.
It’s like pushing a toddler to run a marathon and expect wonders.

What’s the point of conducting sports games between two totally unmatched teams where one team dominate other team with a very predictable pattern?

One off match is ok. But if you repeat the “charade” for more than a decade there is something seriously wrong. Bangladesh team got the test status in year 2000. They have never won over any big team. Let them first win over lankans and West Indians or Zimbabweans consistently and show that they are worthy then only think of them playing England at Lords etc.


I'll bite. After 9 years Bangladesh won a series away in the West Indies. They just beat them at home too. And have had drawn series at home vs SA, Aus, Eng and Ind.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/banglades ... ;type=team

Now lets look at India -

They took 20 years to draw with England at home. 33 years to draw with Aus at home. And 39 years to beat West Indies away (before any drawn series at home).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/india/eng ... ;type=team

India beating Pakistan before that would be like Bangladesh beating Afghanistan as Pakistan came later...

So - should the cricket world have foresaken India? Of course not. India is now the focal point of world cricket fortunes. Bangladesh has a massive population that is cricket mad. And they will improve. As they have been improving. They just beat WI to the Champs Trophy in ODI, and knocked NZ and Aus!

On the test front, its slow progress, but they're well ahead of Zimbabwe, and they drew in SL recently. No SENA country is able to take a Bang test tour lightly anymore, because Bangladesh is up for it. Yes they dropped a test to Zimbabwe recently, but this is all good for cricket having more teams playing well.

The Asian SENA divide is real, with Asian teams defending home fortress well, and vice versa with the SENA teams. This is not bad for cricket. It makes the away tour wins, very very significant, as it should be.

Within the next 10 years, Taylor, Watling, KW, Latham, Southee Wagner and Boult will be gone from NZL (and all our current spinners who aint the best anyway), and NZ will likely be a rabble again for at least a decade - maybe longer - unless the South African import talent really kicks on. Does that mean NZ should lose test status in a trough? I hope not.

Sri Lanka got lucky with Murali, or it would have taken them until Herath for their batting skills to be rewarded with test wins, and even then it would only have been in Asia.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Paddles » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:35 am

It takes generations for nations to instill a domestic culture that produces the best test level cricketers. And the worst thing is, is the talent gets poached by England, India and Aus because they have the money. Where are the best NZ coaches? They're working in the IPL and Australia. Its where the money is.

WI, NZ, Ind, Pak all took generations to get up and running. And NZ and WI both fell off the wagon. SL appears to be struggling now away post its batting cream. I'm not sure that they will produce a batsman like Sanga again, and certainly not in a line up of Sam, Jaya, Jaya, Dilshan et al ever again. Will there ever be another Murali?

Rashid Khan said the dumbest thing before the debut test vs India, he said he would bowl like he does in t20 and odi. That was never going to work. And the same Indian batsmen he troubles in intls and the IPL spanked him all round the ground in test cricket because the scoring pressure was off them.

Crowe worked with Taylor and Guptill made them better. Boult and Southee were at their best when they had Bond. He's now in the BBL and IPL. Auckland would be better with Adams. He's with NSW. Flemming has never even coached in NZ, preferring BBL and IPL and Hesson was lost to the IPL.

So the odds are stacked against any new side. And this continues if the game lacks money in that country. Where is Sangakarra for SL? He's doing English commentary. Jayawardene is coaching globally. Murali coaches IPL.

It takes a long time to build a support base. When Shakib retires, will he help the new Bangladesh talent as a coach, or will he coach for IPL?

Teams like NZ and WI look set to fluctuate up and down. Eng does to a lesser degree of lows thanks mainly to clouds. SA I think soon will have a possible batting crisis. Aus's structure is the second best around, and they've struggled to replace Smith and Warner. And I really don't get what Langer is doing half the time? Do Katto and Halo?

India has a rock solid base. With Dravid at the helm of the A team. The IPL as well. But besides SA Eng and Aus, everyone else seems to fluctuate up and down with Pak always capable of playing brilliantly, and playing abysmally. And they have decades of cricket culture to produce international cricketers.

The fledglings need support. Not undue criticism. Some criticism is warranted like where ICC funds go perhaps in Zimbabwe... but Bangladesh appears to be beyond that... Bangladesh are progressing nicely enough.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Paddles » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:01 pm

Either people attempt to maintain and grow the existing test nations, or chase money. If people keep chasing money, it will end up as 3 country sport. With an Ashes at home every 2 years.

Now some fans in Eng, Aus and Ind would like that. But the world cups are going to suck.

Alternatively, all bar the Big 3 could simply abandon test cricket and just focus on limited overs, but I am not sure Eng, Aus and Ind would like the disadvantage that would then give them in the World Cups with Pak, SA, WI, NZ, SL and Bang just full of hardened white ball pros 24/7 who have played 100 days of limited overs cricket each for the year. I imagine their would be a noticeable physical shape conditioning difference with the non-Big 3 players be they batsmen or bowlers, built far more like Andre Russell after continuous weight training in the gym, than Virat Kohli or Bhuvi Kumar and Chahal.

When Aus sucked in the 1980's - they just kept playing the West Indies incessantly (and NZ a lot too who were good then with Hadlee - 3 series in 2 years, 4 in 4) until Aus went back to number 1. Its the only way for these guys to improve is to play the best and learn.

Bullying easy wins over minnows teaches no new skills to anyone. But the minnows learn from the best. And they improve.

Either its a professional world game, or its a pure business.

Ultimately the fans will decide the fate of cricket. And over time, the spending power will be even more and more Indian. It will be what they want. intl or non, test exclusive or inclusive. And I think for most Indian fans they want a global sport that fuels patriotic pride. Because they don't have soccer. They don't have rugby. And they don't have the Olympics, summer or winter.

I really miss the Aus ODI tri-series, but it was losing money compared to Bi-laterals. I don't see how, but channel 9 and CA decided it was as the overseas viewing audience wasn't that keen on them or something yadda yadda. I loved them - even when NZL was not even involved. And they were profitable for a long time when Packer was at the helm of ch 9 with an Aus viewing audience. Apparently the concept became stale.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Paddles » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:56 pm

Katto wrote:
one thing 1877 has in common with 2019, commercial considerations come into play

if Bangladesh can attract TV ratings and crowds then they'll be provided with more test cricket


Image

Bangladesh is set fine and dandy for test cricket... Only the Big 3 have more, and Australia only by a whisker...

What is noticable SA has less than Bang, WI, and SL... And not pretty for ODI either...

This is terrible news for CSA. The SL an Bang ascension - I am sure has to do with Indian viewing audiences. I don't get the West Indian ascension.

I do not comprehend how the WI get so much cricket... At all...

Their board - for all claims they're useless, sure do get them a lot of cricket...

It seems there is the Big 3 in order of Ind, Eng and Aus...

Second tier 3: WI, SL and Bangladesh

Then the third tier: Pak, SA, NZ to round out the 9

Then fourth tier: Zim, Afg and Ireland (also reflected in ICC funding).
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Going South » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:06 pm

You sure gave a long rope of a decade of failure and support a consistent loser team of Bangladesh but pick on BCCI team without kohli & 2nd grade newbee tryout and generalize entire BCCI team as worthless over a trekking T20 match inspite of their thumping win in test and ODI cricket very recently over the same team they lost to? Get out hater!!!

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Re: Test cricket's last-minute arrival

Postby Katto » Fri Feb 08, 2019 1:27 am

sounds like this guy want's to kill Test cricket
http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/ ... nk-manohar

ICC chairman Shashank Manohar has said the World Test championship has been introduced to stop the format from "dying". On the second day of a courtesy visit to Bangladesh at the invitation of BCB president Nazmul Hassan, Manohar met the country's Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina before attending a reception hosted by the BCB.

During the press conference, he said T20s are generating the most interest among viewers, particularly in terms of TV ratings and stadium audience.

"We are trying to see whether Test championship can generate interest," Manohar said. "Because Test cricket is actually dying to be honest. So to improve the situation, we are trying ways and means. The [ICC] board directors came to a conclusion that if we start a Test championship, it would keep Test cricket alive and generate more interest in the game.

"If you look at the TRPs of the broadcasters, T20 has the maximum TRP. It is because of being the shorter version of the game. Nowadays, people don't have five days time to watch a Test match. From 10 to 5 everybody has their own job to do so it is very difficult for them to watch this game. T20s get over in three-and-a-half hours, like watching a movie. Therefore, it is picking up very fast."