Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

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Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby raja » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:04 pm


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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Boycs » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:10 pm

Not had a chance to read yet but didn’t he just top score amongst an Indian team struggling against SA pace? Doesn’t therefore his game help his team?

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Katto » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:49 am

raja wrote:http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22157239/virat-kohli-arrogance-helps-game-not-team


deluded article

the Indian media seem to have ready made excuses for every series loss. If they'd gone earlier and played more warm up games they still would've lost to South Africa. If they'd selected this player instead of that player they still would've lost. They've played two tests now, have they improved?

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby bolero » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:09 am

Why blame Kohli all the time ? What are the other batsmen there for ? Playing cards.

Kohli has already scored a century (153) and fifty in the series. Other than that , which batsman have scored a 50 (leave aside 100) for India ?

Hardik Pandya - 93 and Pujara - 50.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby bolero » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:30 am

What has Rahul, Vijay, Dhawan, Sharma done to merit selection ?

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby raja » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:53 am

The attitude of BCCI batsmen in this series has been woeful.
Is is that they seriously lack the ability to play this quality bowling, or they lost it already in the head before going to bat?
This is a side which has been riding high on a winning streak, albeit largely at home.
Confidence should have been very high, coming in as World No.1.

I don't think anyone is blaming Kohli's batting here. It is his captaincy style that's being questioned.
When captains get showered with accolades for winning games, they also get flak for losing.
That's how it goes.

But this article goes beyond just on-field matters.
It talks about Kohli's power with the Board - and how obsequious the Board itself is towards him.
It comes down strongly on Shastri as not having stature to be coach.
This took me very much by surprise, because I've always seen Shastri as a strong person.

I don't agree with a lot of what's written in this piece - I just posted it to trigger a discussion.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby bolero » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:34 am

My point is a captain is as good as his team. Kohli cannot be a one show, although some of his decisions are definitely questionable.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Leo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:44 am

No question about Kohli's greatness as batter but present Indian team has lacking on the following that I said on another thread.

Leo wrote:I think the motivation for the players are not up to the mark. On that time Indian team was motivated. They always put some extra effort to win a test mach. This team is highly lack on that. Their body language is not up to the mark. They store it for IPL? May be. If so, then Captaincy is the reason behind it. It is one of the duty of a captain to motivate players.


I always prefer Kohli's attitude. But if it doesn't help your team to perform than what's the benefit of that attitude?

Once (Azharuddin Period) I used to hear that India cannot adjust with foreign condition or cannot play without batting / spinning wicket. They were too defensive.

After that (Ganguly Period) India started to win in overseas condition. In that case Indian players started to adjust with foreign condition quickly. It has become possible just because of that motivation or extra effort from the players. It can be said that Ganguly got some extra ordinary players like Tendulkar, Dravid, Shehwag, Kumble, Zaheer etc. But some of those were used to play in Azharuddin era as well. But their performance changed under Ganguly. That is the difference of motivation or extra effort.

Present Indian team under Kohli has lacking on that till now. Hope for the best.
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby raja » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:48 am

I agree that a captain is only as good as his team.
But isn't BCCI supposed to be World No1 in Tests (not sure if SA has overtaken them now)? :-)
So Kohli is leading a bunch of world-beating players, no? :-)

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Boycs » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:50 am

bolero wrote:My point is a captain is as good as his team. Kohli cannot be a one show, although some of his decisions are definitely questionable.


Are there examples of such decisions?

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby bolero » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:34 am

Boycs wrote:
bolero wrote:My point is a captain is as good as his team. Kohli cannot be a one show, although some of his decisions are definitely questionable.


Are there examples of such decisions?


Leaving out Bhuvaneshwar Kumar in Test 2. He was the best bowler in test 1.

Opting to bat first in Test 3 on a green top with all seam attack.

Leaving out Rahane in Test 1 and 2, best batsman in overseas conditions (as per average) and an excellent slip catcher.

These are some examples.

Kohli got heckled by the Indian press on selection , he did not take it well.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Boycs » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:43 am

Are these ego-related mistakes do you think? Or just poor-choices mistakes?

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby bolero » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:46 am

Ego choice mistakes. He doesnt like to listen no.

I dont think Kohli is a consensus person, its my way or the highway.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:46 am

Leo wrote:No question about Kohli's greatness as batter but present Indian team has lacking on the following that I said on another thread.

Leo wrote:
After that (Ganguly Period) India started to win in overseas condition. In that case Indian players started to adjust with foreign condition quickly. It has become possible just because of that motivation or extra effort from the players. It can be said that Ganguly got some extra ordinary players like Tendulkar, Dravid, Shehwag, Kumble, Zaheer etc. But some of those were used to play in Azharuddin era as well. But their performance changed under Ganguly. That is the difference of motivation or extra effort.

Present Indian team under Kohli has lacking on that till now. Hope for the best.


http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ew=innings

This is the complete list of Ganguly's 11 away match wins as captain.

3 in Zimbabwe (2 after Mugabe changed cricket in Zimbabwe)
1 in Australia
1 in England
1 in West Indies (No Ambrose or Walsh)
0 in NZ
0 in South Africa

3 in Bangladesh
1 in Sri Lanka
1 in Pakistan

I don't think the Ganguly era is at all that impressive for all the batting talent that India had.

For losses away -

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ew=innings

the list includes,

WI 2 (again post Ambrose and Walsh)
NZ 2
SL 2
Zimbabwe 1
SA 1
Eng 1
Aus 1
Pak 0

What stands out more for me is the low number of losses in Pak, Aus and SA, but not the wins.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby bolero » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:49 am

I think Paddles made a comment that Kohli was rattled by all the questions on selections that came his way in the presser, I agree with that.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:53 am

bolero wrote:I think Paddles made a comment that Kohli was rattled by all the questions on selections that came his way in the presser, I agree with that.


I don't know if he was rattled by the questions on selections. I doubt it I'd go that far as a descriptor.

I said he didn't handle the interview in a media savvy manner. Too unnecessarily fiery. He often seems fiery to me. It seems to be a common way that he communicates when things are not going his way. I think he went into the interview already in a bad mood.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby bolero » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:15 pm

Yes, I meant that. He didnt handle the questions on selection well. He snapped.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Leo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:16 pm

Paddles wrote:I don't think the Ganguly era is at all that impressive for all the batting talent that India had.


If you compare with Azharuddin era, Ganguly era is definitely impressive.
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:19 pm

Leo wrote:
Paddles wrote:I don't think the Ganguly era is at all that impressive for all the batting talent that India had.


If you compare with Azharuddin era, Ganguly era is definitely impressive.


But the Azha era had a lot less batting talent, and when it started, Vegasarkar was the best batsman.

Who was captain after Ganguly and before Dhoni?
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Leo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:20 pm

^^ Rahul Dravid & Anil Kumble.
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:22 pm

bolero wrote:Yes, I meant that. He didnt handle the questions on selection well. He snapped.


I've seen him snap like that before after RCB lost after posting what he thought was a big score, and asked whether RCB had scored enough. Kohli, who had scored big himself, but started slow, did not give the most pleasant interview, and gave it to the interviewer as well as his bowlers.

I think its great that India have a captain who clearly cares about winning, but his media skills are not very good. He has to stop talking to umpires and media like they are the opposition sledging him to maintain wide respect. The media are not people that can be intimidated. No matter who you are. Look at Donald Trump's failings with them.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:22 pm

Leo wrote:^^ Rahul Dravid & Anil Kumble.


How did they do?
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Leo » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:28 pm

^^ Not like Dhoni definitely.

But they were not as poor as Azharuddin. By then team India's body language has been changed. They were much aggressive than Azharuddin era. Dhoni actually fulfill Indian team.

BTW, after 1996, Azharuddin used to have Dravid, Ganguly, Tendulkar and himself in his batting line up. Specially, when he regain his captaincy at 1998. His bowlers were Srinath, Prasad and Kumble. But, that his captaincy was always defensive. And India continued to struggle in overseas condition.

Somehow, in this Indian reminds me that Azharuddin team. Though this is just starting of Kohli's captaincy. You never know his next South Africa tour as captain can be different :)
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:30 pm

Leo wrote:^^ Not like Dhoni definitely.

But they were not as poor as Azharuddin. By then team India's body language has been changed. They were much aggressive than Azharuddin era. Dhoni actually fulfill Indian team.

BTW, after 1996, Azharuddin used to have Dravid, Ganguly, Tendulkar and himself in his batting line up. Specially, when he regain his captaincy at 1998. His bowlers were Srinath, Prasad and Kumble. But, that his captaincy was always defensive. And India continued to struggle in overseas condition.


Haha, it was worse in the early 90's. By then Dev was not the force he was - and for a while he shared the new ball with Probhakar. Hirwani promised a lot, but delivered little.
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:32 pm

Leo wrote:Somehow, in this Indian reminds me that Azharuddin team. Though this is just starting of Kohli's captaincy. You never know his next South Africa tour as captain can be different :)


Safrica is a difficult tour to win for teams not Australia.

England got lucky with Safrican injuries last time. And a bollocks Stokes 200 ;)

What Indians should really be focussing on soon, is wondering how good is Bhuvi Kumar? And how good will he be?
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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby bolero » Thu Jan 25, 2018 12:59 pm

I have my own reservations on Azharuddin. How much matches he played honestly and how much for the bookmakers and crime syndicates.

It will start another debate, so will let it pass.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby raja » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:15 pm

Dhoni won 2 World Cups for India - the T20 World Cup in 2007 and ODI World Cup in 2011 (this one was at home).

He also won IPLs for CSK.

But his Test record will be marred by the 0-4 thrashing in England in 2011 (a series when he had Tendulkar, Dravid, Laxman and Sehwag in his side) and a 0-4 thrashing in Australia a few months later (same set of players available).

His image did take a beating after these two series for a bit - but in T20/ODI/IPL-crazy India, memory of Test failures is quickly erased. Often with help of commentators who (possibly on instructions of BCCI) have a vested interest in propping up rockstars.

I remember there would hardly be a mention of the 0-4,0-4 - it was glossed over.
Anil Kumble, and some other ex-cricketers (BS Bedi too) wanted an explanation - but BCCI, being ever the Artful Dodger, dragged their feet over it, knowing public memory is short.

Having said all this, I must say I thought Dhoni was excellent at keeping his cool in the most tense of situations.

And again to his credit, he never claimed to be a good Test batsman - he was just a fighter. He said as much - on that England tour of 2011, when far more established players were falling by the wayside to Anderson/Broad/Bresnan, Dhoni, with his zero-technique, played a few decent rearguard knocks, all in a losing cause, of course.

Overall, I'd say Dhoni was a good captain - not as much a people's captain as Ganguly. but leading by example.

Ganguly was a people's captain - players like Bhajji, Yuvi, Zaheer, Sehwag swore by him. According to them, he always encouraged them and raised their game. He was also very good friends with Sachin - not quite as pally with Dravid.

Dhoni had his coterie - Raina, for example. Both CSK-ites, it was rumoured that there were some CSK players involved in CSK's shady deals (deals that got CSK banned for a couple of years from the IPL). It went up to the level of the Supreme Court of India, but BCCI, being BCCI, managed to ensure no names came out. Dhoni's and Raina's names were hotly rumoured at the time - even now, many believe Dhoni was part of it.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby raja » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:26 pm

India's last series win in England was in 2007 - with Rahul Dravid as captain.
Soon after this series win, he made a shock announcement that he was quitting as captain, ostensibly to concentrate on his batting.
It's true that at that time his batting was not quite what we were used to from him.
But I don't think it was only to do with his batting form - Ganguly was still very much a player at the time, and I sense that he had more support in the squad than Dravid. Everyone respected Dravid as a player - but he was seen as Greg Chappell's man. And Indian players just hated GC, all of them barring Dravid, rallied around Ganguly.

Dravid, being the professional he was, refused to take sides, saying he'd work with whatever coach he had to. I think this only drove a further wedge between Ganguly and Dravid. Ganguly had a massive ego - Greg Chappell pricked it when he asked him to step down once in Zimbabwe to make way for Yuvraj (or was it Kaif?).

Anyway, that's just all my take on this. Adding some spice to this story. :-)

http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2007/sep/15stats.htm

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Going South » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:18 pm

had azhar not a muslim he would have been behind bars a long time ago. just saying.

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Re: Kohli's arrogance helps his game, not the team

Postby Leo » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:49 am

raja wrote:Ganguly was a people's captain - players like Bhajji, Yuvi, Zaheer, Sehwag swore by him. According to them, he always encouraged them and raised their game. He was also very good friends with Sachin - not quite as pally with Dravid.


I think Kohli is not being enough.
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