Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

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Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Going South » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:40 pm

Image

found on twitter.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Katto » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:28 pm

Kallis = minnow basher :)

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Boycs » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:42 pm

I imagine zaheer took his wickets in far fewer matches though? One factor in kallis number of wickets is he played so many times due to his great batting ability. Zaheer will also have bowled more harder overs opening the bowling and attacking the top order where perhaps kallis bowled third change against the weaker batsmen at times.

But take nothing away from kallis he’s a bloody epic all rounder. Right up there ATG.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Katto » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:21 pm

Boycs wrote:I imagine zaheer took his wickets in far fewer matches though? One factor in kallis number of wickets is he played so many times due to his great batting ability. Zaheer will also have bowled more harder overs opening the bowling and attacking the top order where perhaps kallis bowled third change against the weaker batsmen at times.

But take nothing away from kallis he’s a bloody epic all rounder. Right up there ATG.


I never really rated his bowling. I think South African conditions are very favourable to trundlers, more so than anywhere in the world, hence why Pollock was so successful. Also coming on as a support bowler behind some of the great fast bowlers they've had there isnt a lot of pressure on.

If he played most of his cricket in India I suspect he'd average 45+ with the ball.

In 15 matches in Australia (large sample size) he averaged just under 42. That's a part timer's average, not an all rounder's average.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby squarecut » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:02 pm

Kallis is an alltime great allrounder, just like Sobers.

When Sobers retired, he had the highest tally of test runs, sixth highest tally of test wickets, and the highest tally of test catches by a non wicket keeper, and the second highest number of test centuries. Mind numbing records.

When Kallis ended his career, his record was quite comparable to Sobers, vis a vis existing batting, bowling and fielding records in tests.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby squarecut » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:09 pm

Zaheer Khan by the way has taken 311 test wickets and not 273 as mentioned in the photograph on the first post of this thread. Kallis has taken 292.

13289 test runs, 292 test wickets, 200 test catches, 45 test centuries ! Awesome performance by Kallis.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Boycs » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:36 pm

How many Indian pacers are there with sub-30 averages? Kapil Dev? Anyone else? And with sub-30 at home?

And yet neighbours Pakistan can boast some of the most esteemed pacers

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Going South » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:12 pm

BCCI play only 2 fast bowlers per game so unlike other teams you get less higher stat players

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Boycs » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:26 pm

Well that’s just silly

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:29 am

Kallis was a fantastic cricketer, but unfortunately for him in international standing - he was dour and boring as a cricketer. Methodically ruthless and great for South African achievement, but not much in it for the nuetrals. Bit like Rahul Dravid, amazing cricketer, but only for the purists to fully appreciate as a neutral.

One thing to note with Kallis' bowling, he was often denied bowling to the tail (or of the new ball). Being the 4th or at times even 5th seamer this cost him the benefit of lowering his bowling average. Then again, he got to bowl less overs. Katto rightly said he averaged 42 in Australia, he did however get Ponting 3 times, Gilchrist 3 times, Hayden twice, which at 42 is well below those guys' average, in Australia or overall. Most his overs were bowled in Australia were during Australia's peak. His 42, compared to Jimmy Andersons 38.5 (who played and took a ton of wickets in 2011, Kallis bowled very little in 2012) - starts looking a favourable comparison for Kallis.

Like Katto, I don't think Kallis was a particularly special bowler, but he was good enough to average under 30 in England and a touch over 30 at home, and his bowling skill was incredibly useful to him as a limited overs player, as he certainly was more than good enough to be a legitimate 10 over option. But of the massive run scorers in tests, noone gets close to him in the bowling ranks since Sobers, albeit Sanga can keep a a frontliner, ABDV arguably can, and Dravid was not really a frontline keeper. So, if a team wants the balance of a 5th bowling option, Kallis fills this role with the batting team still in tact, not like the problems Australia and NZ are having at 6 in recent years trying to sort out team balance. To have the guy solving team balance to also be the the best batsmen in the team, this is a unique and special quality. And this is why I think most cricket fans as a whole, we rightly celebrate the all round abilities of Mr Kallis. I think there were plenty of times, where Kallis, would have made the opposing team as a bowler, maybe not traditional seam powerhouses like Australia who just keep decade after decade keep producing an endless supply of quality seamers, but more teams than just minnows. His bowling stats are after all, about average, if not better, for a regular test specialist bowler, albeit with less balls bowled per match. His record looks damn good and much better next to Vettori's. And he has Chris Martin beat on bowling average too, let alone batting average.

Of his peers, he has Jayasuriya, Vetorri, Bravo, Symonds, Watson, Flintoff all easily beat with both bat and ball with Shakib beating him in the bowling. Cairns beats him in the bowling too, but Cairns despite batting high for NZ, was very def a bowler first. (Which makes Shakib quite unique, what is he first and foremost? Miller may have started a bat, but Bradman made him a bowler. What is Shakib's primary role?)
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Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Going South » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:06 pm

Not able to open bowling but bowl when pressure is off with batsmen trying to hit risky shots as a 3rd bowler compensate for not bowling last overs. it evens out in the end.

You cannot deny that a contribution from allrounder is 2 times that of any batsman or bowler in comparison. Productivity is ensured one way or other in EVERY MATCH as bowlers or batsmen sometimes have bad days.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Boycs » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:42 pm

One of the downsides of an all rounder as a concept is how players with one or both skills sadly lacking have been forced into an all rounder position by a team management unable to resist the siren call of “the next botham/hadlee/sobers/imran”. This we-must-have-an-all-rounder ethos.... sometimes it really is better just to pick six batsmen a keeper and four bowlers rather than pick someone who can’t bat or bowl quite good enough for either discipline in test cricket and try and build a team around it.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:06 pm

Going South wrote:Not able to open bowling but bowl when pressure is off with batsmen trying to hit risky shots as a 3rd bowler compensate for not bowling last overs. it evens out in the end.

You cannot deny that a contribution from allrounder is 2 times that of any batsman or bowler in comparison. Productivity is ensured one way or other in EVERY MATCH as bowlers or batsmen sometimes have bad days.

Risky shots off 3rd bowler?

Oh thats right - you only follow t20 cricket - I was talking about tests. And you're wrong about the tail n new ball evening out. I suggest you look at some stats tables for players. Those cheap wickets bring the bowler's average down to 30 and under when most test batsman average over 40. Not getting prefered access to tail and new balls counts against immensely. But bowlers typically have to earn the right for first crack at new ball and tail. 5th bowlers often take the wickets that expose thd tail only to be relieved from the attack.


I like where you're going with ypur "productivity" theory tho.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:21 pm

Boycs wrote:One of the downsides of an all rounder as a concept is how players with one or both skills sadly lacking have been forced into an all rounder position by a team management unable to resist the siren call of “the next botham/hadlee/sobers/imran”. This we-must-have-an-all-rounder ethos.... sometimes it really is better just to pick six batsmen a keeper and four bowlers rather than pick someone who can’t bat or bowl quite good enough for either discipline in test cricket and try and build a team around it.


Yeah - I do not like bits and pieces batting at 6 and there better be an all rounder at 8 (n maybe 9) if that is the way a team decides like England at present. England got better after Freddie retired, a fact few mention but Broad and Anderson want a 3 rd seamer to do some of the donkey work and bring their bowling averages down - GS will not understand this point but you prolly will.

Mitch Marsh, Corey Anderson, Jimmy Neesham types do not belong in test teams batting at 6 imo. But this just serves to ahow good Jaques and Sobers were. They outbatted most of the best throughout history, and their bowling was good enough to be better than average for a skill set that is not their primary role.
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Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Going South » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:00 am

5th bowler takes more wickets than other bowlers? LOL.
5th bowler is not a proper bowler but bits and pieces also-played players like batsmen who can also bowl couple of overs to add variety and to give rest to pace bowlers. if you need think that they are better wicket takers than the regular bowlers you must be watching some other game, not cricket.

Coming back to original point, on whose bowling do batsmen try to step out of their defensive game and try to do something to score off with shirt buttons undone ?
Definitely not the pace bowlers. Definitely not the spinner until you are familiarized and confident of that pitch and turn. That leaves medium pace bowler & the fringe 5th Filler bowler. As 5th bowler is not one but usually couple of also-bowled filler players, the flexing muscles are targeted at this 3rd bowler compared to other bowlers is my point.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:52 am

Going South wrote:5th bowler takes more wickets than other bowlers? LOL.


What are you on about?


Going South wrote:5th bowler is not a proper bowler but bits and pieces also-played players like batsmen who can also bowl


Sometimes, sometimes not. But you're missing the point. The discussion is Kallis, allrounders and their allround role. Flintoff was certainly more than a bits and pieces bowler and he typically played with 3 specialist seamers and a spinner. Heck - he even opened the bowling for a World XI.


Going South wrote:couple of overs to add variety and to give rest to pace bowlers. if you need think that they are better wicket takers than the regular bowlers you must be watching some other game, not cricket.


Again, what are you on about? Do I think Kallis was a better bowler than some specialist (opening) bowlers like Mohammad Sami? Then yes I do.

Going South wrote:Coming back to original point, on whose bowling do batsmen try to step out of their defensive game and try to do something to score off with shirt buttons undone ?


Can you translate this into English please?



Going South wrote:Definitely not the pace bowlers. Definitely not the spinner until you are familiarized and confident of that pitch and turn. That leaves medium pace bowler & the fringe 5th Filler bowler. As 5th bowler is not one but usually couple of also-bowled filler players, the flexing muscles are targeted at this 3rd bowler compared to other bowlers is my point.


Mitch Marsh doesn't bowl slow. Stokes leaks runs, but he isn't slow. And the ER rate of many 5th bowlers like Kallis at 2.82 ER is better than many first rate bowlers, who give away a few runs per over in the pursuit of wickets. Not only is your general point invalid, it doesn't even begin to explain Kallis' stats. Kallis bowled a whole heap faster than Philander to boot. Pretty sure he was quicker than Pollock too. Perhaps instead of talking "pace" you should refer to "new ball" and/or "strike" bowlers, or better yet, simply the first choice seamers. People selected in the side to bowl seam, Steyn, Philander, Pollock, Donald, Nitni (as a 3rd seamer was faster than medium), et al.

You clearly have little understanding of test cricket. You're the least informed cricket fan I have ever come across moderating a cricket forum. Ever notice that I don't have disagreements with Boycs or Raja over cricket fundamentals, but I do with you? Please don't waste my time with nonsense questions or I will simply stop replying. No offence.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Katto » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:55 am

Boycs wrote:One of the downsides of an all rounder as a concept is how players with one or both skills sadly lacking have been forced into an all rounder position by a team management unable to resist the siren call of “the next botham/hadlee/sobers/imran”. This we-must-have-an-all-rounder ethos.... sometimes it really is better just to pick six batsmen a keeper and four bowlers rather than pick someone who can’t bat or bowl quite good enough for either discipline in test cricket and try and build a team around it.


the reason its done is obvious though, its like having an extra player if it comes off and solves a lot of team balance issues

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Boycs » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:20 am

That’s true when it comes off. But when it’s over forced....

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Going South » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:21 am

again personal attacks paddles? really? so petty. You are on a fast track to get banned wherever you go. behave yourself.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Going South » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:32 am

Here is my attempt to educate you about cricket one last time.

A cricket team usually got 4 fast bowlers and a spinner, typical bowling unit. some times it could be 2 spinners esp in the subcontinent.

Which two bowlers open the bowling for the team?
take a guess. i give some time for your dumb brain that forgets to think.
is it the two fastest of the 5 bowlers they got?
great. if you don’t think, don’t continue reading. cricket is not for you. go follow baseball or rugby.
now, think on why two best fast bowlers are picked to bowl first?
your pea brain need to think more. i give time.
it’s because their wicket taking ability is better than other 3.
atta boy. you are getting educated.
keep it up.
whoever bowls after these first two opening bowlers are SLOWER than those opening bowling. right? got it?
so 3rd bowler end up being slower bowler than other bowlers.
now go read comics and watch cartoons.
cricket is not for you, you dumb kid.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:29 am

Going South wrote:Here is my attempt to educate you about cricket one last time.


Get real.

Going South wrote:A cricket team usually got 4 fast bowlers and a spinner, typical bowling unit. some times it could be 2 spinners esp in the subcontinent.


A cricket team has 11 players and some must bowl overs. They could bowl whatever style at whatever pace. A common contention between teams is whether to have either 4 front line bowlers in tests, or a 5th genuine bowling option, that is significantly better than a specialist batsman filling in a few overs. The ideal is if there are 5 bowling options is that at least one of them is useful with the bat. Teams typically play at least 1 spinner, but not necessarily as the famous WI pace battery was 4 quicks and no spinner. Teams could play 3 or more spinners if the conditions are expected to be conducive.

Going South wrote:Which two bowlers open the bowling for the team?


The two that are the best exponents of new ball bowling, be it due to the swing of the new ball, the more pronounced seam nibbling, or the harder ball bouncing more*. (Seniority can play a role in keeping some young up-and-comer at first change as well with the established pro holding onto the new ball mantle - there is often a pecking order, an anomaly to this seniority that helps prove my point is Johnson as the "premier" strike bowler not bowling with the new ball despite being attack "leader" (especially when Harris did not play as personally I thought Rhino was the best bowler in most teams he played for Australia in). But if there are bowlers like Hazelwood for Cummins or Hazlewood for Johnson who can do more with the new ball, they ought to get the crack at it ahead of the faster Johnsons and Cummins who in turn will bowl first change or below.

The best example of the "seniority" is a very old Imran taking the new ball in Australia in 1990 ahead of the much younger and much faster Younis. Imran was one of the best (and fastest) in his day, but this post leg surgery and past the age of retirement for many a fast bowler at 37 years of age where he was bowling less and less, and much much slower. But he thought he had the benefit of experience and the ability to get the new ball to respond, plus Younis was very handy with reverse swing, which requires an older ball to exploit.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16626/scorecard/63520/Australia-vs-Pakistan-1st-Test-pakistan-in-australia-test-series/

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16626/scorecard/63522/Australia-vs-Pakistan-3rd-Test-pakistan-in-australia-test-series/

Going South wrote:take a guess. i give some time for your dumb brain that forgets to think.
is it the two fastest of the 5 bowlers they got?


No. Often the fastest bowler will be the 3rd seamer or even 4th seamer. This often happened with Australia's Brett Lee, Mitch Johnson for Australia or Rabada or Morkel not opening the bowling for South Africa. Slower bowlers who are better with the new ball like McGrath, Pollock and Philander took the new ball ahead of them. This happens with England where Broad and Anderson will open the bowling ahead of the faster Mark Wood. I can go on and on and on with examples here. I bet even Akhtar at times bowled 3rd or 4th in his career. Lets not even discuss when spinners open the bowling beyond what I wrote below simply to note that it does occur and flies directly in the face of your theory. You really think any of the 30 times that Lee didn't open the bowling, he was slower than those that did? Or did the slower Flemming get the new ball ahead of him cos he could swing it better than Lee? McGrath for his better nibble on a more accurate line and length. So on and so forth.

Going South wrote:great. if you don’t think, don’t continue reading. cricket is not for you. go follow baseball or rugby.


Have you learnt anything yet?

Going South wrote:
whoever bowls after these first two opening bowlers are SLOWER than those opening bowling. right? got it?
so 3rd bowler end up being slower bowler than other bowlers.


This is just completely and utterly wrong. I don't think you're informed about cricket in the least and your logic often disappoints me.

"Right Malcolm, you're bowling 4 today after Michael and Andy, Joel at 3, so make sure you're the slowest. Joel, don't spear any of those yorkers faster than Michael or Andy bounce them at today."

Seriously, talk some sense. Stop wasting my time with your illogical and ignorant nonsense. No offence.


*Not to mention any possible issues with an uphill end or a stiff breeze, but even then the new ball typically trumps these adverse conditions for at least a couple of overs. But on a turning track, spinners may take the new ball from at least one end, or even open the bowling, and certainly at least bowl first change.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:28 pm, edited 24 times in total.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:50 am

GS, if you want to ban me, just ban me. I don't care much for your threats and to be honest with you, I think you're personally a very large impediment to this website ever reaching its full potential of cricket fans discussing interest cricket issues and sharing anecdotes.

In all sincerity I find you endlessly rude, totally ignorant (not just cricket), and thoroughly illogical. This isn't me having a personal attack at you, I'm just saying it gives me no pleasure to read your posts and deal with your content mixed resulting from those 3 personality traits combined. I can learn things or be engaged and stimulated from the posts of smart and rude people, and I can enjoy friendly ignorance or lacking logic, especially so if good humored. But your personality combination just pains me.

Consider this forum user feedback to your posting and moderating performance.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby raja » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:29 pm

Interesting thread - I have thoughts on Kallis which I will share here, but first I'd like to say, let's keep our discussion civil. No ad hominem please.
We might disagree on a topic - in fact, we often do. That's what often keeps a discussion going.
But disagreeing is one thing, insulting or mocking others is something else altogether. And that's very much a no-no.
Not everyone has the same level of understanding of the game, or even communication skills. We need to just take this in our stride and factor that into our conversation.

I keep saying this - we're here to have fun, while discussing cricket (and other topics). Banter is great - in fact, it's encouraged. :-)

Let's not create tension and bitterness here. Thanks.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Katto » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:31 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby raja » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:46 pm

Now about Kallis.

I happen to think Kallis was a far better bowler than we usually give him credit for.
He had decent pace and could swing the ball just the required extent to get that edge.
So he was far better than the "change" bowler we often see - the one who bowls a few overs to give the mainline bowlers a break.

As has been said, in another team, Kallis might well have been bowled much more - in fact, in the first half of his career, he did bowl a fair bit. It was only to prolong his career, that his bowling workload was reduced and he decided to bowl only sparingly. SA had Donald, Pollock, Ntini and Steyn during Kallis' career - they usually did the required work, so Kallis didn't have to chip in.

When he did bowl early in his career, he was dangerous, especially in English conditions. I remember the series in England in 1998. While the Donald-Atherton contests are most remembered, Kallis played his part too as a bowler.

I know his figures in Australia are unimpressive - but as has been pointed out, he bowled to a very strong Aussie batting line-up.

Was just looking at batsmen dismissed by him:
Ponting 6
Chanderpaul 6
Gilchrist 6
Hayden 5
Hooper 5
Flintoff 4
Stewart 4
Younis Khan 4
Graeme Thorpe 4
Ian Bell 4
Gayle 3
Vaughan 3
Tendulkar 3
Mark Butcher 3
Mark Waugh 3
Steve Waugh 3
Jayawardene 3
KP 3
Damien Martyn 3
Katich 3
Lara 2
Hussey 2
Sanga 2
Nasser 2
Ganguly 2

and so on.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... an_summary

So a pretty decent set of scalps I'd say, for a bowler who many consider as a "change" bowler.

And no, it wasn't because batsmen went attacking Kallis and holed out. This is Test cricket, unless they're under pressure to score quickly, top order batsmen aren't going to play stupid shots and give their wickets away cheaply.
----

Kallis, the batsman, does have a rather flattering average, in my opinion.

I do think he took full advantage of weak attacks - if I remember right, he struggled in England (except for a big hundred in partnership with Amla). His record in Australia is ok - but not brilliant.

His strength as a batsman was, I think, his tenacity. He rescued SA many times - there were a few innings against BCCI that BCCI fans might remember. :-)

But yes, he wasn't in the class of a Tendulkar or a Lara or a Ponting. So his Test average, being higher than average for these players, is flattering. 50+, for sure. Maybe 51.

So, all in all, a slightly flattering batting average - and a far better bowler than his stats suggest.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:51 pm

...


Even someone like S Waugh was a better and more valuable bowler than a first blush look at averages suggests.

Its these guys who the captain looks to "golden arm" and break a partnership - where bowling is at worst for averages. The overs bowled here helps reduce the premier bowler averages - think declared innings. When a team is being skittled on a greenie for under a 100 - they're unlikely to pry the ball out of the new ball bowlers hands for too long, and if once they have exposed a new batsman let alone the tail, the captain often wants the tail or new batsman mopped up quickly with the premier bowlers, who also get the new ball. Flintoff is apparently skewed with batsman wickets vis a vis lower order which is commonly offered to explain his bowling prowess against a rather mediocre average- I havn't checked Freddy's scalps, but the concept is valid and he was often 3rd and 4th seamer.

But Kallis was certainly more of a genuine bowling option than Waugh.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Boycs » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:35 am

I always got the impression with Flintoff and with Botham that they considered themselves bowlers.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Katto » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:17 am

Boycs wrote:I always got the impression with Flintoff and with Botham that they considered themselves bowlers.


definitely.

Consider this, who are more value generally? Bowling allrounders or batting allrounders. I'll go with the bowlers.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Boycs » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:52 am

Well I suppose with four bowlers and seven batsmen in any team (or 5/6, or whatever) and given that every bowler bats (even a little) and not every batsman really bowls with any success, a bowling batsman is as you say more valuable than a batting bowler.

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Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Going South » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:07 pm

raja, it all started by paddles who is uncivil to me first. check the thread. He picked on other posters too earlier, this is not the first time. May be I expected too much from a moron? I could have written equally lengthy line by line quoted reply to his idiotic post, then again what’s the point? I don’t want to stoop to his level so I now choose to stay away. peace!

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Katto » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:26 pm

I dont mind a little drama. Paddles train wreck's are entertaining sometimes.
I dont take it personally because I know its not a me problem. :lol:

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby squarecut » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:06 pm

Instead of looking at the stats and forming an impression, if I recall the telecast of matches played by Kallis in 1990s, I recall that he bowled at 145 kmph, which would have made him a opening bowler in most teams (except South Africa, Australia and Pakistan). The fact that South Africa had great opening bowlers meant that Kallis was not made to bowl as much as we as armchair experts would have wanted him to do. The team think tank would like to manage the work load of someone like Kallis, instead of thinking about how to squeeze the maximum out of his cricketing abilities. He could have been overbowled and then he would have achieved a better bowling record, but then he would have burnt out faster.

Kallis was a great asset to his team. Comparing him with others on the basis of dry statistics is a pointless and meaningless exercise.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:58 pm

We are doing an injustice to Sachin, Zaheer and Kallis by comparing the three. I will make an attempt to assess from my perspective.

Sachin
Made his debut in tests in 1989 against Pakistan in Pakistan and survived a baptism by fire. Played against quicks like Wasim, Waqar and Imran and acquited himself well. He had already made a reputation as a young sensation in Mumbai and India. He made record scores in Giles shield and Harris shield, was pitchforked into Mumbai ranji team at 15? Was highly recommended by Mumbai seniors Gavaskar and Shastri. He was one of the few batsmen from India who excelled on bouncy and swing favorable wickets. I believe captaincy robbed him of his batting and put pressure on him. He was a great batsman but a below average captain. But a captain is as good as his team. His resources were average. He remodelled his batting after injuries and eschewed the pull and hook shot after 2000 to lengthen his playing career. His record in chases was nowhere close to his record batting first.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:06 pm

Zaheer Khan

The lad from Srirampur close to the temple town of Shirdi (he is a worshipper of Shirdi Sai Baba which is rare for Muslims, mostly Hindus revere the Saint).

Started off as a quickie, was drafted into Indian team in 2000, gave a torrid time to English batsmen during Indias tour to England in 2002. Was bowling 145 kph consistently and swinging with pace both ways. I remember Alec Stewart being hit and suffered a minor concussion.

Over time, injuries destroyed his playing career. He used to produce super spells abroad only to be injured for the remaining of the series.

In 2011 World Cup which was his Swansong he was one of the architects of Indias win. Reduced his pace considerably, but his swing and cutters still befuddled opposition.

He was decent with the bat as a slogger who wielded the long handle.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:15 pm

Now Kallis

Very decent bat. If he didn't get out early, he ground the opposition. The fact that he batted at 3 or 4 showed that he was the backbone who steadied the Saffer ship.

For a fourth bowler he was an above average bowler who bowled about 138 kmph which meant opposition batsmen couldn't pick him off easily.

At that time, India had 3rd or 4th bowler swam options at 125 kmph.

He was part of the Cronje team which stifled and choked the opposition.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby raja » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:34 pm

Thanks, bolero.

I didn't know Zak bowled 145 kmph early in his career!

I always liked Zak. Even after the 2003 World Cup final. :-)

I think he got better after the Greg Chappell snub.

He returned from injury, played in England - and came back a much more effective bowler. His pace did drop but he made up for it with smartly mixing his away-going and incoming deliveries. Zak to left-handers was great fun to watch. Especially Graeme Smith. :-)

Sachin was without doubt the second-best batsman in the world in the 90s. Was a delight to see the way he would toy with the bowling.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:38 pm

https://youtu.be/iI1m_AxYIwk

One of his under rated spells against NZ in Hamilton. Khan was done by injuries, but good bowler nevertheless.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:41 pm

raja wrote:Thanks, bolero.

I didn't know Zak bowled 145 kmph early in his career!

I always liked Zak. Even after the 2003 World Cup final. :-)

I think he got better after the Greg Chappell snub.

He returned from injury, played in England - and came back a much more effective bowler. His pace did drop but he made up for it with smartly mixing his away-going and incoming deliveries. Zak to left-handers was great fun to watch. Especially Graeme Smith. :-)

Sachin was without doubt the second-best batsman in the world in the 90s. Was a delight to see the way he would toy with the bowling.


I still remember that spell against England, it was at Edgbaston I think. I have never seen him more hostile. Never before, never after. Looked like Zaheer would send a few to hospital.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:55 pm


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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:56 pm

Graeme Smith looked all at sea against Zaheer. You are right Raja. See above video.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby raja » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:19 pm

Thanks, bolero.
Just watched both videos - good fun. :grin:

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:45 am

Boycs wrote:I always got the impression with Flintoff and with Botham that they considered themselves bowlers.


Yeah - young Botham would have been opening the bowling with Willis even if batting poorly. Although getting closer to nearing retirement Botham is a different scenario altogerher.

I think Freddy may have needed the second bow a lot more in an era of Gough, Caddick, Harmison, Jones, Hoggard, Anderson, Onions, Sidebottom, Tremlett, Broad, but Boycott (the real) called him a bowler and not much of a batsman.

What about Shakib? Whats he first and foremost?

Some, like Miller, were moulded into what the team desired. Some like S Waugh just started dominating with the bat and got continued selection despite injury.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:11 am

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/95065.html

This isn't a complete list but all the usual suspects of the era appear; Jacques Kallis fastest recorded ball 147.6k is quicker than Zaheer's 145. Just sayin'. Kallis also has 1 more entry on the list than Zaheer.

This list of the era would be a real heart breaker for WI fans.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:43 am

I will not go by plain stats. I have seen both Zaheer and Kalis bowl umpteen times. Zaheer was threatening and menacing for the opposition when fit. Kallis on the other hand was not threatening, however Kallis was never easy to get away because he was not a typical 4th or 5th bowler. He had good pace.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:07 am

bolero wrote:I will not go by plain stats. I have seen both Zaheer and Kalis bowl umpteen times. Zaheer was threatening and menacing for the opposition when fit. Kallis on the other hand was not threatening, however Kallis was never easy to get away because he was not a typical 4th or 5th bowler. He had good pace.


Thats not stats. Thats data.

You'll get no argument from me that Zaheer was a better bowler than Jacques (due to his swing), but its wayyy closer than it rightly ought to be, and if we're talking pace, fat international retired Jacques was still hovering 140 in T20s, while Zaheer has slowed considerably over time.

I think its the short run up like Jacques has that throw people off about burly bowler's pace.
Last edited by Paddles on Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:12 am

Paddles wrote:
bolero wrote:I will not go by plain stats. I have seen both Zaheer and Kalis bowl umpteen times. Zaheer was threatening and menacing for the opposition when fit. Kallis on the other hand was not threatening, however Kallis was never easy to get away because he was not a typical 4th or 5th bowler. He had good pace.


Thats not stats. Thats data.

You'll get no argument from me that Zaheer was a better bowler than Jacques (due to his swing), but if we're talking pace, fat international retired Jacques was still hovering 140 in T20s, while Zaheer has slowed considerably.

I think its the short run up like Jacques has that throw people off about burly bowler's pace.


I won't get into an argument with you. Kallis was a great allrounder bowled with good pace but was not threatening. Zaheer was dangerous when fit.

This is my opinion.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:16 am

There were times when Zaheer was the only fast bowler in the Indian side and then there were 3 spinners.

Kallis was never in such a situation. He had the luxury of bowling after Donald / Pollock /Ntini /Fanie /Craig Matthews etc. Basically the batsmen tried to go after Kallis and got out in the process.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:20 am

bolero wrote:There were times when Zaheer was the only fast bowler in the Indian side and then there were 3 spinners.

Kallis was never in such a situation. He had the luxury of bowling after Donald / Pollock /Ntini /Fanie /Craig Matthews etc. Basically the batsmen tried to go after Kallis and got out in the process.


Kallis' ER of 2.8 does not support your theory at all, your perception is not the reality on these figures.

But Pollock did have the luxury of bowling with Donald, Pollock, Schultz, Ntini, Steyn, Morkel, Hayward and Nel. Typically, bar Pollock, these bowlers gave up more runs per over. Steyn and Ntini are 3.2 E/R for example.

Unfortunately with no regular quality spinner in the side, Jacques had to become a refined holding bowler - which he did very well.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:22 am

But as an allrounder Kallis was a great great asset. You would love a no 3 batsman to also bowl 140 kmph. Any team would want such a gem.

South African then captain Cronje was also a very underrated bowler. Tendulkar remarked that Cronje was one of the most difficult bowlers he faced.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:24 am

bolero wrote:But as an allrounder Kallis was a great great asset. You would love a no 3 batsman to also bowl 140 kmph. Any team would want such a gem.

South African then captain Cronje was also a very underrated bowler. Tendulkar remarked that Cronje was one of the most difficult bowlers he faced.

Even better at 147.6k max :)
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