Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

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bolero
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:25 am

Paddles wrote:
bolero wrote:There were times when Zaheer was the only fast bowler in the Indian side and then there were 3 spinners.

Kallis was never in such a situation. He had the luxury of bowling after Donald / Pollock /Ntini /Fanie /Craig Matthews etc. Basically the batsmen tried to go after Kallis and got out in the process.


Kallis' ER of 2.8 does not support your theory at all, your perception is not the reality on my opinion.

But Pollock did have the luxury of bowling with Donald, Pollock, Schultz, Ntini, Steyn, Morkel, Hayward and Nel. Typically, bar Pollock, these bowlers gave up more runs per over. Steyn and Ntini are 3.2 E/R for example.

Unfortunately with no regular quality spinner in the side, Jacques had to become a refined holding bowler - which he did very well.


Kallis got his wickets that way. I never mentioned that Kallis leaked runs. He was a holding bowler as you rightly mentioned.

How many clean bowled did Kallis get in his career vis a vis Zaheer?

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:33 am

bolero wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Kallis' ER of 2.8 does not support your theory at all, your perception is not the reality on my opinion.

But Pollock did have the luxury of bowling with Donald, Pollock, Schultz, Ntini, Steyn, Morkel, Hayward and Nel. Typically, bar Pollock, these bowlers gave up more runs per over. Steyn and Ntini are 3.2 E/R for example.

Unfortunately with no regular quality spinner in the side, Jacques had to become a refined holding bowler - which he did very well.


Kallis got his wickets that way. I never mentioned that Kallis leaked runs. He was a holding bowler as you rightly mentioned.

How many clean bowled did Kallis get in his career vis a vis Zaheer?


You said Kallis got wickets by batsman going after him as against the rest of the pack.

I said his ER does not support this as he was one of the more miserly Safrican bowlers, albeit behind most miserly Pollock.

So now you're saying Kallis got his wickets as a holding bowler or batsmen going after him? Are you suggesting holding bowler wickets are easier to get? Or that batsmen slogged Kallis, failing most the time and not denting his ER? Be clear to your point here please so I can understand your argument.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:39 am


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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:42 am

Paddles wrote:
bolero wrote:
Kallis got his wickets that way. I never mentioned that Kallis leaked runs. He was a holding bowler as you rightly mentioned.

How many clean bowled did Kallis get in his career vis a vis Zaheer?


You said Kallis got wickets by batsman going after him as against the rest of the pack.

I said his ER does not support this as he was one of the more miserly Safrican bowlers, albeit behind most miserly Pollock.

So now you're saying Kallis got his wickets as a holding bowler or batsmen going after him? Are you suggesting holding bowler wickets are easier to get? Or that batsmen slogged Kallis, failing most the time and not denting his ER? Be clear to your point here please so I can understand your argument.


Batsmen used to get frustrated with the nagging pace of Kallis and they used to hole out trying to hit and get out. Since you like stats a lot, I have posted a link of clean bowleds by a bowler. Zaheer is there. I cant see Kallis.

Similar with caught by keeper. Zaheer is there, can't see Kallis.

I have made my point.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:44 am

bolero wrote:http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283464.html


This is a url.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Katto » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:44 am

:popcorn:

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:46 am

bolero wrote:
Paddles wrote:
You said Kallis got wickets by batsman going after him as against the rest of the pack.

I said his ER does not support this as he was one of the more miserly Safrican bowlers, albeit behind most miserly Pollock.

So now you're saying Kallis got his wickets as a holding bowler or batsmen going after him? Are you suggesting holding bowler wickets are easier to get? Or that batsmen slogged Kallis, failing most the time and not denting his ER? Be clear to your point here please so I can understand your argument.


Batsmen used to get frustrated with the nagging pace of Kallis and they used to hole out trying to hit and get out. Since you like stats a lot, I have posted a link of clean bowleds by a bowler. Zaheer is there. I cant see Kallis.

Similar with caught by keeper. Zaheer is there, can't see Kallis.

I have made my point.


So you're saying that Kallis suffocated batsmen into losing their wickets?

I'd agree thats a legitimate strategy for taking wickets. What does Warne alaways say, 3 maidens in a row?
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:49 am

Yes. That's what I meant. Kallis was not an attacking bowler. ZK was.

But Kallis as an allrounder, any team would want him. Good with bat, ball and in the field.

I don't like this comparison business. Everybody has different roles in the team. ZK was a strike bowler. Kallis was an effective holding out bowler as we both agree.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:52 am

bolero wrote:Yes. That's what I meant. Kallis was not an [as effective] attacking bowler.[as] ZK was.

.


Zaheers' better SR at 60 to Kallis' 69 proves that. Just use the right stat to support your point.

I think Zaheer was a better bowler for his swing, and if two bowlers have the same average, the significantly lower SR is typically the better bowler and doing more to help the team win with the ball. In this case, that is Zaheer. But its a lot closer than it ought to be where only one has the regulat benefit of the new ball. Zaheer was at one time a leading bowler in the world, Kallis was a batting prodigy in the 10k club, and yet he was holding his own with the ball at good pace (faster than many think).

Its not about "liking stats". Its about understanding what data they serve to present.
Last edited by Paddles on Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:03 am

Point taken.

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Re: Kallis =sachin + zaheer agree?

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:08 am

I remember when Aussie commentators used to call Brian McMillan slow/medium as he shuffled in from only a few paces and had no exentuated leap before delivery stride, yntil one game when a speed gun was used, it showed he was bowling faster than the entire attack bar Donald (albeit in the Farnie/Snell/Mathews/Cronje era) as well as quicker than many of his opponents with his ability break 140 easily.

But Big Mac did have the shoulders more akin to that of a rugby player than a cricketer.

On the flip side we now have an Afghan emulating his idol Akhtar by running in from beyond the 30m circle at 40 to 45m with a full leap to hurtle the ball down at a lightning fast 129 to 133km/h.
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