2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:05 pm

Katto wrote:
Boycs wrote:So which places are up for grabs in the Aussie team? Which batting positions will there be a scrap for in the next few weeks?


6 & 7

the rest are pretty much settled

should be barring injury...
1. Renshaw
2. Warner
3. Khawaja
4. Smith
5. Handscomb
6. ???
7. ???
8. Starc
9. Cummins
10. Lyon
11. Hazlewood


Agreed for opening test, but I additionally think that Renshaw has not nailed his spot down yet and needs some scores in tests, if he fails and a few big scores by Shield opener could see a change. But so far his home tesr record is strong vs Pak and Safrica.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:06 pm

Mitchel Johnson has said that England can still win without stokes. That surprises me. I thought he’d be leading the smack-talk brigade along with Warner. Though warner has himself recanted his mouth from earlier.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:17 pm

Boycs wrote:Mitchel Johnson has said that England can still win without stokes. That surprises me. I thought he’d be leading the smack-talk brigade along with Warner. Though warner has himself recanted his mouth from earlier.

Woakes and Ali softens the blow and opens the opportunity for more of a specialist bat or bowl. TRJ may have in fact been a bigger blow to England.

Im sure Root n Cook can put up some big totals - but its the lack of England's penatrive bowling outside Adelaide d/n that has me confident of Strayan success, besides no batsmen really putting their hands up with Root and Cook.
Australia can put together multiple combos that will bowl sides out readily and their batsmen relish the fast and true albeit bouncy home pitches.

Maybe Jimmy can rediscover his 2010 form and pace which I v much doubt - but even then who does the Tremlett role?

Older Lillee, Hadlee and McGrath had great success bowling nibble in the channel in Straya, but even Alderman struggled trying to bowl gentle swing at home at times - moreso when compared to his absolute demo jobs in England. Even Philander has found it tough going at times.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:45 pm

Boycs wrote:Mitchel Johnson has said that England can still win without stokes. That surprises me. I thought he’d be leading the smack-talk brigade along with Warner. Though warner has himself recanted his mouth from earlier.


Mitchell Johnson is a pussycat.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:39 pm

Vaughan is now saying England could plan their way to an ashes victory on non-swinging Aussie pitches. A turn of English confidence has rippled through recent media, unfounded I would argue.

An optimist may predict a well fought series but I just think even a mediocre Aussie team would win in their home country against anything other than a top quality touring team. And England aren’t top quality, they’re some class mixed with some awfully average

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:48 pm

Boycs wrote:Vaughan is now saying England could plan their way to an ashes victory on non-swinging Aussie pitches. A turn of English confidence has rippled through recent media, unfounded I would argue.

An optimist may predict a well fought series but I just think even a mediocre Aussie team would win in their home country against anything other than a top quality touring team. And England aren’t top quality, they’re some class mixed with some awfully average


England won in 86-7 with a pretty average team

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:21 pm

And is today’s Aussie team weaker than it was then?

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:43 am

Boycs wrote:And is today’s Aussie team weaker than it was then?


That's up for debate. That team drew a series in India just prior with a win and a tie.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:20 am

Plus botham gatting gower lamb are pretty good players (or better) and is that the series with Chris broads run of centuries?
Bowling looks pretty average though.

Hmmmm.

HMMMM!

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:23 am

Boycs wrote:And is today’s Aussie team weaker than it was then?


Not really on results until they start losing at home to more than Safrica (and have some rebel tours diminish their reserves).
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:24 am

Boycs wrote:Plus botham gatting gower lamb are pretty good players (or better) and is that the series with Chris broads run of centuries?
Bowling looks pretty average though.

Hmmmm.

HMMMM!


Botham took some seriously inmocuous bags of wickets in that series, but he was on top of his batting. Smashed the short bowling. Broad was magnificent (albeit with attitude). Broad ahould have chosen Australia to play cricket for and not England. Gladstone Small had a wonder debut series iirc but didn't play all of the games.

But England's batting combined with Botham and those innocuous wickets seemed to seal Aussie's fate.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:31 am

Gatting good or better? Lamb was an odi star and iirc stoop up to the Windies quartet with success. Gower and his talents live long among fans and is of course still the goto "lazy left hander" reference point for graceful leftie shotmaking, esp driving, by NZ and Aus commentators. Khawaja the latest to be endowed praise with it. But Gatting?

I think he disapointed compared to his childhood and county success. He was meant to be great vs spin, but I think fast bowlers targetted him (with a lot of success).
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:02 am

Boycs wrote:Plus botham gatting gower lamb are pretty good players (or better) and is that the series with Chris broads run of centuries?
Bowling looks pretty average though.

Hmmmm.

HMMMM!


They were an average team by any measure. They had some good players, but then so did Australia.
It was billed as a wooden spoon battle at the time.

Both teams were pretty unprofessional in their approach at the time. Some of the England players liked to party hard on tour. eg Gower, Lamb.
Bob Simpson had only recently taken over as coach of Australia.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:04 am

I would lump gatting under the good title in the context of his time and his team and gower and botham in the better than good category.

I think I recall that gatting was peaking average wise around then but could easily be wrong in that.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:09 am

Boycs wrote:I would lump gatting under the good title in the context of his time and his team and gower and botham in the better than good category.

I think I recall that gatting was peaking average wise around then but could easily be wrong in that.


England were getting smashed by every other team. Australia were losing series to everyone as well but not by as much.
The level of professionalism at that time was at a much lower standard.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:14 am

Boycs wrote:I would lump gatting under the good title in the context of his time and his team and gower and botham in the better than good category.

I think I recall that gatting was peaking average wise around then but could easily be wrong in that.


You're more generous than me with Gatt.

Gower you're possibly being harsh on. Gower was v good if not excellent.

But all this era talk still proves my regular irritation - AB is underrated.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:24 am

Katto wrote:
Boycs wrote:I would lump gatting under the good title in the context of his time and his team and gower and botham in the better than good category.

I think I recall that gatting was peaking average wise around then but could easily be wrong in that.


England were getting smashed by every other team. Australia were losing series to everyone as well but not by as much.


WI and NZ less so were touring for success - but who else were these teams losing to at home?

India in Eng 86?

India didn't win in Aus (thanks in a large part to Border).

Surely SL were the clear wooden spooners.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:33 am

Oh I consider AB an all time great. Particularly give the context of his runs. Who doesn’t?

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:43 am

Boycs wrote:Oh I consider AB an all time great. Particularly give the context of his runs. Who doesn’t?


majority of this forum when I joined :lol:

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:52 am

Boycs wrote:Oh I consider AB an all time great. Particularly give the context of his runs. Who doesn’t?


But even in the ATG sphere or even specifically Aussie greats I find that he is commonly ranked lower than he ought be. Maybe he needed a Lara-like bat lift, or a Sehwag-like strike rate to garnish more praise.

Someone (A Strayan to boot) on this site once even said AB didn't even drive the ball. Of course youtube proved that to be utter nonsense. I swear at times he is more highly thought of by NZ former players than Australian ones (albeit the one notable exception being SK Warne, the one opinion if by itself who you almost don't want currying favour).

I think he's not only one of the best players but a marvellous ambassador of the game. Easily one of my favs, both as a player and as a person. I wouldn't have raised an eye brow if he had gotten knighted (if Aus were to still do that).

Mark Taylor on the other hand gets love and praise at such levels that it is lost on me.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:18 am

Davey Warner, only player to get runs on what looks like tricky batting conditions on day 1 sheffield shield at AO

lots of big names playing in this match

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:35 am

Paddles wrote:
Boycs wrote:Oh I consider AB an all time great. Particularly give the context of his runs. Who doesn’t?


But even in the ATG sphere or even specifically Aussie greats I find that he is commonly ranked lower than he ought be. Maybe he needed a Lara-like bat lift, or a Sehwag-like strike rate to garnish more praise.

Someone (A Strayan to boot) on this site once even said AB didn't even drive the ball. Of course youtube proved that to be utter nonsense. I swear at times he is more highly thought of by NZ former players than Australian ones (albeit the one notable exception being SK Warne, the one opinion if by itself who you almost don't want currying favour).

I think he's not only one of the best players but a marvellous ambassador of the game. Easily one of my favs, both as a player and as a person. I wouldn't have raised an eye brow if he had gotten knighted (if Aus were to still do that).

Mark Taylor on the other hand gets love and praise at such levels that it is lost on me.


I suppose AB didn’t have a flamboyant characteristic other than seeming grumpy. Bit like cook

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:25 pm

Boycs wrote:
Paddles wrote:
But even in the ATG sphere or even specifically Aussie greats I find that he is commonly ranked lower than he ought be. Maybe he needed a Lara-like bat lift, or a Sehwag-like strike rate to garnish more praise.

Someone (A Strayan to boot) on this site once even said AB didn't even drive the ball. Of course youtube proved that to be utter nonsense. I swear at times he is more highly thought of by NZ former players than Australian ones (albeit the one notable exception being SK Warne, the one opinion if by itself who you almost don't want currying favour).

I think he's not only one of the best players but a marvellous ambassador of the game. Easily one of my favs, both as a player and as a person. I wouldn't have raised an eye brow if he had gotten knighted (if Aus were to still do that).

Mark Taylor on the other hand gets love and praise at such levels that it is lost on me.


I suppose AB didn’t have a flamboyant characteristic other than seeming grumpy. Bit like cook


He was a better bat and capt than Cook. What he lacked was visual grace and elegance. The portrayal of him is of a fighter, always battling for 1 more run even when he was possibly finding it easy going. He typically appeared to swing hard on loose balls for his pull, cut and even most his cover drives. He had touch as well.

He was far more effective than he was graceful. But in terms of results - he was ace.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:03 pm

LOL you can tell who wasnt born when AB was at his best

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:10 pm

TBH, I liked Dean Jones more than Border.
Border was a fighter, he may not be graceful but got the runs.

It's a bit like Steve Waugh, if you want someone to play to save your life, Steve Waugh is the man. Then I'll choose Dravid.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby raja » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:45 pm

England in Australia 1986-87 was a heartbreak series.
Only thing positive about it for me was that Australia didn't lose 0-5.
That was only because England themselves weren't a particularly top side then - that Aussie side was still in rebuilding phase ater the retirement of Greg Chappell, Lillee and Rod Marsh. Border was its one rock, match after match.

To think that only a year earlier, BCCI didn't grab that golden chance of finally winning a Test series in Australia (something they've STILL not managed to do!) - only due to Border, a bit of weather luck for the Aussies and an inexplicably slow run-chase at the MCG (after having the game by the scruff of its neck till Border and Gilbert added those precious 77 runs for the last wicket). BCCI (a decent, but far from great, side!) dominated the entire series - THAT was how shaky that Aussie side was.

And yet I'm not convinced that the current Aussie side is better than that 1986-87 one.
That had Boon, Marsh, Jones and Border - 4 decent batsmen.
This team has just 2 - Warner and Smith.

The bowling this time around is probably better - assuming there are no fitness issues.

But this England side is far better than that England one. This one is truly a top England side, so I think we're headed for a very unequal battle.
If England don't cruise through and retain the Ashes, I'll be very surprised.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Mick180461 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:58 pm

raja wrote:England in Australia 1986-87 was a heartbreak series.
Only thing positive about it for me was that Australia didn't lose 0-5.
That was only because England themselves weren't a particularly top side then - that Aussie side was still in rebuilding phase ater the retirement of Greg Chappell, Lillee and Rod Marsh. Border was its one rock, match after match.

To think that only a year earlier, BCCI didn't grab that golden chance of finally winning a Test series in Australia (something they've STILL not managed to do!) - only due to Border, a bit of weather luck for the Aussies and an inexplicably slow run-chase at the MCG (after having the game by the scruff of its neck till Border and Gilbert added those precious 77 runs for the last wicket). BCCI (a decent, but far from great, side!) dominated the entire series - THAT was how shaky that Aussie side was.

And yet I'm not convinced that the current Aussie side is better than that 1986-87 one.
That had Boon, Marsh, Jones and Border - 4 decent batsmen.
This team has just 2 - Warner and Smith.

The bowling this time around is probably better - assuming there are no fitness issues.

But this England side is far better than that England one. This one is truly a top England side, so I think we're headed for a very unequal battle.
If England don't cruise through and retain the Ashes, I'll be very surprised.

Short memory, the current "great England side" just got thrashed at home in a test match by the current Windies team any claim to being a good side went out the door with that result, this England side is far to reliant on Cook, Root, Stokes, Bairstow, Anderson & Broad and you have already lost one of them. Khawaja is a real force on Australian wkts averages something like 61 at home, Handscomb has had a superb start to his Test Career. I'll take Renshaw & Handscomb over Stoneman,Malan,Ballance any day of the week. If this series was being played in England yes i would agree but on the flat wkts of Australia where Anderson will struggle to swing the ball consistantly, Broad is not quick enough and the shortage of Batting talent will show up.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:14 pm

To be fair, being “far too reliant” on half our team isn’t too bad when you think that the phrase is usually mentioned in reference to Bangladesh being too reliant on Shakib, or New Zealand on Hadlee. We have six world class players in the team - not to be sniffed at. But it’s the comparative nothingness of the other five that are the issue so I think we both agree on England’s chances

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Mick180461 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 11:32 pm

Australia has its issues, the no 6 and Keeper prime amongst them, Renshaw, Handscomb & Cummins though they have shown a great deal of promise are still very inexperienced at Test level and are up against some real hard heads in Anderson & Broad.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:32 am

bolero wrote:TBH, I liked Dean Jones more than Border.
Border was a fighter, he may not be graceful but got the runs.

It's a bit like Steve Waugh, if you want someone to play to save your life, Steve Waugh is the man. Then I'll choose Dravid.


Dravid and S Waugh were great grinders and fighters with famous abilities to absorb all the bowler pressure. AB was more than a fighter in my opinion. He had this skill but he also dominated bowling. Bowl it short - he'd pull with power. Bowl it just a whisker wide, he'd cut very very brutally. Bowl it on a fuller length, he'd launch into a drive. Bowl it on a length, he'd shuffle (bit slower and restrained than a full on a charge) forward and launch into a drive. Stack the off side field deep, and he'd still find the boundary. Over pitch, he'd chose his spot on either side of the wicket and would happily sweep spin all day if permitted and then open himself inside out with his feet if he really wanted to get stuck into the spinner. As a short batsman who drove and pulled extensively, he didn't give the bowlers much margin for error. Ricky Ponting possibly took the blueprint one step further in the next generation, or at least became famous for it under the better quality TV cameras and broadcasting.

He may not have held his pose and looked as elegant as a Sachin Tendulkar, Mark Waugh or Martin Crowe, who made batting look like a beautiful performance art as a well as a sport, but he was more than just a brickwall to bowlers scrapping for runs.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:56 am

Boycs wrote:To be fair, being “far too reliant” on half our team isn’t too bad when you think that the phrase is usually mentioned in reference to Bangladesh being too reliant on Shakib, or New Zealand on Hadlee. We have six world class players in the team - not to be sniffed at. But it’s the comparative nothingness of the other five that are the issue so I think we both agree on England’s chances


Steve Smith wants the best 6 best bats for the Ashes with a 4 prong attack. I prefer that style to begin with. So I've pretty much given my position on Stokes, even if he were available. Problem is, Australian batting wickets are prolly better for his batting approach than English ones. He'd prolly like Aussie pitches even more than Safrican ones with his hitting approach.

I think Root and Cook are world class.

I think Bairstow has the tools and potential to succeed.

The rest of the batting is a concern.

I think Anderson and Broad are tremendous bowlers at home, and I think they'd do very nicely in NZ.

But Australian pitches offer less to the bowlers than South African ones.

Besides Adelaide, I can see like many England teams before them, the bowling attack just being ground down by flat wickets and not looking world class in any respect.

That said, Jimmy Anderson and Broad have an opportunity on this tour to further stake his claims as legitimate test bowling greats. A position that Australian cricket fans will not grant them as yet given their limited success so far as against their failures in Australia. I'm excited for the Ashes to begin and see if the England bowling unit has good plans for this tour.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:34 am

bolero wrote:TBH, I liked Dean Jones more than Border.
Border was a fighter, he may not be graceful but got the runs.

It's a bit like Steve Waugh, if you want someone to play to save your life, Steve Waugh is the man. Then I'll choose Dravid.


Border is the most idolised Australian batsman in the modern era in Australia. Not because he was a fighter but because he had fierce square cuts and drives. He was a brilliant counter puncher against express bowling. It was pretty IMO, but thats in the eye of the beholder.
Some will only remember Border in his later years or during times when he was rebuilding an Australian innings.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:48 am

Katto wrote:
bolero wrote:TBH, I liked Dean Jones more than Border.
Border was a fighter, he may not be graceful but got the runs.

It's a bit like Steve Waugh, if you want someone to play to save your life, Steve Waugh is the man. Then I'll choose Dravid.


Border is the most idolised Australian batsman in the modern era in Australia. Not because he was a fighter but because he had fierce square cuts and drives. He was a brilliant counter puncher against express bowling. It was pretty IMO, but thats in the eye of the beholder.
Some will only remember Border in his later years or during times when he was rebuilding an Australian innings.


I agree with almost everything here EXCEPT he is not the most idolised. For technique, style and talent - G Chappel, Ponting and even Mark "low average 'cos he got bored' Waugh are idolised far more and the talk of Border typically brings up "fighter" of which SWaugh seems to take the cake unchallenged cos he let Ambrose hit him with short stuff and stopped playing pull n hook shots. I like your use of the word 'fierce' to describe his cut shots and drives. He cut and often drove with ferocity.

I find AB is underratted but I understand and share your high opinion of him.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Mick180461 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:35 am

Allan Border is a true legend of Australian Cricket matched only by Bradman & Benaud, yes there have been better batsman, yes there have been better Captains but when Australia was at arguably its lowest it was Border who lead Australia back to the top. No one gave the Aussies a chance of winning the 87 WC, no one gave Australia a chance of winning the 89 Ashes but they did.
Paddles your claim that Border is not one of the most idolised Australian Cricketers is ridiculous and shows a lack of true knowledge about Australian Cricket. Border is one of the most idolised Australians of the past 50 years let alone Cricketers.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:37 am

Katto wrote:
bolero wrote:TBH, I liked Dean Jones more than Border.
Border was a fighter, he may not be graceful but got the runs.

It's a bit like Steve Waugh, if you want someone to play to save your life, Steve Waugh is the man. Then I'll choose Dravid.


Border is the most idolised Australian batsman in the modern era in Australia. Not because he was a fighter but because he had fierce square cuts and drives. He was a brilliant counter puncher against express bowling. It was pretty IMO, but thats in the eye of the beholder.
Some will only remember Border in his later years or during times when he was rebuilding an Australian innings.


Yes, I remember his fierce cuts and drives. But somehow I associate the image of fighter with Border.

Steve Waugh of course was something else. I remember his comment when Gibbs dropped him 'You've just lost the world cup, son'. He made the Saffers pay.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:43 am

Waugh was also instrumental in hastening the downfall of the imperial Windies. His mental toughness was second to none. Can say the same about Border also.

Waughs last innings when he denied certain victory to India was also a classic.

About his brother Mark, he was easy on the eye, had a certain languidness about how he played. And an excellent slip catcher.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:01 am

Mick180461 wrote:Paddles your claim that Border is not one of the most idolised Australian Cricketers is ridiculous and shows a lack of true knowledge about Australian Cricket [fans]. Border is one of the most idolised Australians of the past 50 years let alone Cricketers.


Unfortunately my experiences with global and Australian cricket fans begs to differ on AB both as a player and as a captain. Not only has Katto already said in this very thread that he too found majority on this very forum not to consider AB and ATG when he first joined, I too have found AB underrated on not only this forum by an Australian member where we debated extensively to the point where I was pasting youtube links of AB's batting, but the very heavily Australian dominated leagueunlimited forum as well as the more global fan base of cricket web forum. Not to mention the comments on cricinfo and various media from all over the world including Australia. You might have missed Katto's post. I'll quote it for you below.

You may hold AB in the highest esteem, and in the very highest echelon, as do I, but take a look around you, this shared opinion of ours is far less ubiquitous than you may care to believe.

Katto wrote:
Boycs wrote:Oh I consider AB an all time great. Particularly give the context of his runs. Who doesn’t?


majority of this forum when I joined :lol:


By the way, turning me denying "most idolised batsman" into me denying "one of the most idolised cricketers" is a straw man fallacy. It's bad logic. My issue towards his underrating isn't with his lack of appearances in people's top 100 per se, its where he rates in the pecking order at the top of the list.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:49 am

The greatest thing about this forum is everybody has their views and there is no 'one' view on any topic . There is freedom as long as one forum member doesnt start launching personal attack on other members.That is a strict no no.

In that way, it is a fun forum. Most regulars are knowledgeable. Many have played cricket themselves.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby raja » Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:39 am

I've always rated Border, right from his debut series.
I remember he (and Hogg with the ball) were the only bright spots in what was effectively an Aussie C side, with both A and B sides at Packer's.
That was a painful Ashes series, which Australia lost 1-5.
Overnight Mike Brearley became a "great" captain - I wonder how he'd have managed if he'd been given rein of the England side of 1974-75 against a rampaging Thommo and Lillee, and with the Chappell brothers, Walters & co feasting on the England attack.

Anyway, quicky brushing aside memories of that series, Border was truly impressive right from the start - miles ahead of the rest (Sergeant, Darling, Dyson, Hilditch, Ogilvie, Toohey, Wood & co). Toohey, who did ok against India in 1977-78, was a decent bat but Border was still in a league of his own.

Kim Hughes was the other decent batsman at the time but Border was still the wicket that the opposition cared most about.

I agree that he was more than just a fighter, though that's the image that's stuck to him mainly because he was so often caught in that position, given the team he had at his disposal.

But purely looking at his batting, he could score pretty quickly when needed and did dominate attacks too. Something that Dravid rarely did.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:07 am

Raja, I still maintain if I wanted a batsman who I would want to save my life , I would go for 1. Steve Waugh. 2. Rahul Dravid.

I cannot forget Dravid's innings at Georgetown in 2002. He was struck by a Dillon bouncer and went on to score an unbeaten 144. The word giving up was not in his dictionary. I remember a lively pitch in Durban in 96 when India were bundled out for 66. Dravid went in at no 3 and remained not out at 27 looking totally unruffled when wickets fell like nine pins around him on a fast bouncy track against a menacing SA attack. Those were early days in his international career. Also he scored a fine 148 in Johannesburg in 97. Cullinan and the weather saved SA in that test.

Dravid was a selfless chap who would even do full time wicket keeping when asked by the captain, a total team man.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:11 am

bolero wrote:Raja, I still maintain if I wanted a batsman who I would want to save my life , I would go for 1. Steve Waugh. 2. Rahul Dravid.

I cannot forget Dravid's innings at Georgetown in 2002. He was struck by a Dillon bouncer and went on to score an unbeaten 144. The word giving up was not in his dictionary. I remember a lively pitch in Durban in 96 when India were bundled out for 66. Dravid went in at no 3 and remained not out at 27 looking totally unruffled when wickets fell like nine pins around him on a fast bouncy track against a menacing SA attack. Those were early days in his international career. Also he scored a fine 148 in Johannesburg in 97. Cullinan and the weather saved SA in that test.

Dravid was a selfless chap who would even do full time wicket keeping when asked by the captain, a total team man.


I agree that Dravid is an ATG fighting bat but you're not selling it that well when you talk of Merv Dillon hitting him with a bouncer and him going on to score a hundred. :nono: :nana: :lolup:
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:17 am

Yeah, wrong example. But just wanted to show, Dravid would not back down, Same with Steve Waugh tenacious, back to the wall you want these guys.

Dravid off course was named "The Wall" which became a derogatory term for his ODI career.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:26 am

bolero wrote:Yeah, wrong example. But just wanted to show, Dravid would not back down, Same with Steve Waugh tenacious, back to the wall you want these guys.

Dravid off course was named "The Wall" which became a derogatory term for his ODI career.


Dillon, Cuffy, Sanford and Nagamootoo I doubt were the best attack "the Wall" ever bettered :lolup:

I rate Dravid very very highly as test player and not all odi pitches are flat nor setup by a Tendulkar 100 opening.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:30 am

Some of Dravid's best knocks as per Cricinfo, I think one or two have been missed especially the 148 at Port Elizabeth early in his career.

180 v Australia, Kolkata, 2001

One-half of a partnership that propelled India to one of their most memorable and famous Test victories. VVS Laxman's record-breaking 281 at No.3 overshadowed Dravid's contribution in a game, and series, turning 376-run stand that helped India bounce back and win - only the third time in 1535 Test matches that a team won a Test after following-on.

Dravid's failures in his previous three innings in the series had him under pressure when came out to bat at No.6* on the third day, a time when winning the game was far from Indian minds. Laxman set the pace and Dravid played the supporting hand. The pair took matters session by session until the plan developed to batting out the entire fourth day and building a lead sizeable enough for the spinners to play their part on the final day.

Though there wasn't much in the track for the bowlers on the fourth day, Australia bowled with intent only to run into a more determined pair, and they eventually tired. Dravid grew in confidence to shrug off his poor form early in the series and struck 20 fours in a stand that lasted more than 100 overs. "There were times that we were tired and were constantly egging each other on, especially after tea on the fourth day," Laxman would say later about the stand. "In that situation, the talking between overs is really helpful. He [Dravid] would say things like 'This is what we have worked so hard for'."

87 v South Africa, Port Elizabeth, 2001
There was a lot weighing on India players' minds in the wake of match referee Mike Denness' decisions but the team needed to put up a fight on the final day after South Africa had set them 395. Needing to save the Test and keep the series alive, India lost opener SS Das in the first over. In conditions where the bowlers had just enough assistance, Dravid and Deep Dasgupta batted with plenty of patience and determination to help draw the game. The pair added 171, batting more than 80 overs, to keep the South Africa bowlers, who bowled with discipline, at bay. By the time Dravid fell, India had more or less achieved their aim.

"It's also nice, from a personal point of view, to bat with Rahul because my game is somewhat like his in terms of patience; when you have a Sachin or a [Virender] Sehwag at the other end, its easy to get carried away and try something that doesn't come naturally to you," Dasgupta said later.

144* v West Indies, Georgetown, 2002
Dravid helped India draw the Georgetown Test against West Indies after they were in early trouble in response to the hosts' 501. India lost two wickets early and Dravid came in at No.5, with his team on 99 for 3. Dravid's unbeaten 144 also helped India arrest a trend of defeats in the first Test of overseas series, and they went on to win the next Test in Port of Spain, their first in the West Indies since 1976.

Dravid's century came in testing circumstances - he was struck hard by a Mervyn Dillon bouncer on his helmet and was given a couple of pain-killing tablets; his goal was to carry on batting until India avoided the follow-on, but he batted on long after that was achieved. He batted for more than seven hours, and was involved in century stands with VVS Laxman and offspinner Sarandeep Singh, who gave him company as India averted the follow-on.

148 v England, Headingley, 2002
An innings that was critical in helping India win their first Test in England in 16 years and level the series. India took a gamble by opting to bat in conditions that were favourable for fast bowling but Dravid dug in, battled the elements and made a decisive 148, setting the foundation for a 600-plus score in a solid stand with Sanjay Bangar. The plan was to bat, taking as few risks as possible until tea, wait for the conditions to ease and then step up. It worked perfectly, as England lost steam after tea and a 170-run stand with Bangar provided the base for Sachin Tendulkar and Sourav Ganguly to dominate the bowling. India, who played two spinners, won by an innings and Dravid deservedly won the Man-of-the-Match award for his 307-ball knock that was key in India taking first-day honours and dictating the flow of the Test from there on.

233 and 72* v Australia, Adelaide, 2003
A pair of innings that did as much as any other to erase the "tigers at home, paper tigers abroad" tag that dogged Indian cricket. As the visitors' top-order folded in Adelaide, it seemed Steve Waugh's team would hand out another hiding, similar to the ones India suffered on the previous tour in 1999. Dravid and Laxman, though, brought back memories of the extraordinary 2001 Kolkata Test with a game-turning 303-run stand. Dravid wasn't through yet. The epic double-century in the first innings was backed up with a four-hour 72, capitalising on a rare Adam Gilchrist drop, which took India over the line for their first victory in Australia in 23 years. Australia were left to wonder how they lost a Test despite making 556 in the first innings.

270 v Pakistan, Rawalpindi, 2004
It was India's first visit to Pakistan in 15 years, and predictably the hype surrounding the series was feverish. India had never won a Test series in Pakistan and, worse, hadn't succeeded in a Test series abroad for more than a decade. That blot was erased with Dravid's 12-hour opus in the deciding match at Rawalpindi. It wasn't his most fluent effort - the timing was off early on, and there were several chances - but, again, he highlighted his ability to persevere, carving out the longest Test innings by a player from India. He joked that six-day Tests would be needed for him to try break Lara's record of 400, though his final 100 runs came at a run-a-ball. That gave India the luxury of more than two days to bowl out Pakistan, which they duly did to clinch a ground-breaking victory.

81 and 68 v West Indies, Kingston, 2006
A couple of minefield masterclasses to secure another path-breaking success for India. West Indies might not have been at their world-dominating best, but their fast bowlers proved unplayable to everyone but Dravid on a brutal track in Sabina Park. Every nuance of Dravid's much-lauded defensive technique was on display as he weathered the pace and hostility of Jerome Taylor to make a first-innings 81, even as the rest of the specialist batsmen floundered. The next day, he proved a one-man bulwark as the batting crumbled again - hardly beaten on the day as he crafted another half-century. A series-winning hand that set the new gold standard for a captain's innings.

117 v England, Nottingham, 2011
Even 15 years into his career, Dravid was shunted around from his favoured No. 3 spot. At Trent Bridge, he was pushed up to open on a perfect surface for fast bowlers, against the high-quality attack of James Anderson, Stuart Broad and Tim Bresnan. He was battered in the first hour, struck on the wrist and then had his fingers jammed by the bouncing ball.

With the ball fizzing around, he played and missed innumerable times but he told himself "as long as I'm here, I'm going to make it count". With another display of his enormous powers of concentration, he constructed his 34th Test century, drawing level with Sunil Gavaskar and Brian Lara. To counter the swing, he played as late as he could and shelved the extravagant strokes. It was only against the relatively less threatening off spin of Graeme Swann that he showcased the range of his shot-making. Despite his hard-working hundred, India weren't able to take the advantage as their lower-order capsized dramatically. It was the last day in which India put up a fight in the highly anticipated series that ended in a humiliating whitewash.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/story/556798.html

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:36 am

Paddles wrote:
bolero wrote:Yeah, wrong example. But just wanted to show, Dravid would not back down, Same with Steve Waugh tenacious, back to the wall you want these guys.

Dravid off course was named "The Wall" which became a derogatory term for his ODI career.


Dillon, Cuffy, Sanford and Nagamootoo I doubt were the best attack "the Wall" ever bettered :lolup:

I rate Dravid very very highly as test player and not all odi pitches are flat nor setup by a Tendulkar 100 opening.


I too rate Dravid very highly, higher than Tendulkar when playing away from home.

Tendulkar was past his prime after 2000.

One more innings of Dravid I loved was Headingley. I remember he and Bangar took body blows but never flinched. But Dravid was never a good captain, he was the good obedient soldier. Ganguly loved a scrap and did not mind playing dirty.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:40 am

bolero wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Dillon, Cuffy, Sanford and Nagamootoo I doubt were the best attack "the Wall" ever bettered :lolup:

I rate Dravid very very highly as test player and not all odi pitches are flat nor setup by a Tendulkar 100 opening.


I too rate Dravid very highly, higher than Tendulkar when playing away from home.



To be honest - I just simply rate him in tests higher than Tendulkar.

Heck - there's even a case for VVS as well - but that really starts getting people restless (and VVS didn't have tge level of longevity in his favour).
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:41 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
majority of this forum when I joined :lol:


By the way, turning me denying "most idolised batsman" into me denying "one of the most idolised cricketers" is a straw man fallacy. It's bad logic. My issue towards his underrating isn't with his lack of appearances in people's top 100 per se, its where he rates in the pecking order at the top of the list.


I never even mentioned you and I wasn't responding to you. :lol:

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:45 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:

By the way, turning me denying "most idolised batsman" into me denying "one of the most idolised cricketers" is a straw man fallacy. It's bad logic. My issue towards his underrating isn't with his lack of appearances in people's top 100 per se, its where he rates in the pecking order at the top of the list.


I never even mentioned you and I wasn't responding to you. :lol:


Well you didn't EVEN mention ANYONE AT ALL, so if you weren't responding to BOYCS - who and what were you referring too?! You quoted BOYCS's AB ATG post?!

Think where you're going with this Katto :lolup: :lol: :roll:

And for this most recent quoted post of mine you quote - its referenced to Mick - not you. You made points, I denied one aspect, Mick disagreed with my denial after 'strawmanning' it.

I think you'll find that you've misread something here.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:18 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
I never even mentioned you and I wasn't responding to you. :lol:


Well you didn't EVEN mention ANYONE AT ALL, so if you weren't responding to BOYCS - who and what were you referring too?! You quoted BOYCS's AB ATG post?!

Think where you're going with this Katto :lolup: :lol: :roll:

And for this most recent quoted post of mine you quote - its referenced to Mick - not you. You made points, I denied one aspect, Mick disagreed with my denial after 'strawmanning' it.

I think you'll find that you've misread something here.


re-read the thread page and you'll see who I was responding to :roll:

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:30 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Well you didn't EVEN mention ANYONE AT ALL, so if you weren't responding to BOYCS - who and what were you referring too?! You quoted BOYCS's AB ATG post?!

Think where you're going with this Katto :lolup: :lol: :roll:

And for this most recent quoted post of mine you quote - its referenced to Mick - not you. You made points, I denied one aspect, Mick disagreed with my denial after 'strawmanning' it.

I think you'll find that you've misread something here.


re-read the thread page and you'll see who I was responding to :roll:


Katto, just make your point - if you have one.

What have you taken exception to?

And how is it relevant to my reply to Mick?
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