2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:40 pm

Legsidelizzy wrote:
Katto wrote:Henriques struggled against the seamers in last night's T20 before dominating the spinners later on.
There's a reason why we have different players for different formats.


At last,good people in the frame for the Ashes.

Stoinis would be Voges 2.0,at the least a Bradman.


Are you suggesting voges is better than bradman?

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Legsidelizzy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:09 am

Boycs wrote:
Legsidelizzy wrote:Few weeks ago Vince was barely even chicken


Misty what does this mean?


I beg your pardon ?

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:04 am

Vince was barely even chicken, what does that mean? :P

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Going South » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:06 pm

don’t act smart misty. we know it’s you. Stay away from Ashes & English cricket threads. keep it clean.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:21 am

Dumb dumb, look at this for a surprise. Cummins warns England that he'll be banging it in short like Johnson. You must be shocked to learn that his role will be to bowl fast and intimidate with short stuff?

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/cricket/pat-cummins-delivers-blunt-warning-to-england-batsmen-as-he-prepares-to-unleash-sixyears-of-pentup-rage/news-story/3e54005d1db0ba29d23036e200d5c83b
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:43 am

Even if Australia overdo the smack talk England are still going to get creamed

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:58 am

Boycs wrote:Even if Australia overdo the smack talk England are still going to get creamed


:rj: has begun

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:25 am

Cummins should bowl to his strengths. Cant be compared to Mitchell Johnson.

Let him focus on his game. England is a good side, cant be rolled over.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:48 am

I remember broad being talked up as England’s “enforcer” and trying to live up to that ruined his bowling for a year or so.

If your a scary bowler you don’t need to talk about it. Those that hype do so because they know without the words they aren’t really there.

Bowl properly to get them out :P

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:13 am

Boycs wrote:I remember broad being talked up as England’s “enforcer” and trying to live up to that ruined his bowling for a year or so.

If your a scary bowler you don’t need to talk about it. Those that hype do so because they know without the words they aren’t really there.

Bowl properly to get them out :P


A few England players retired and at least one of them (maybe two) ended up in therapy after Johnson's onslaught in the last Australian ashes.
No harm in rekindling those memories. )

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:23 am

I almost needed therapy as a spectator.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:25 am

bolero wrote:Cummins should bowl to his strengths. Cant be compared to Mitchell Johnson.

Let him focus on his game. England is a good side, cant be rolled over.


Of course he can, as can any bowler who bowls fast and bangs it in short.

More interested in what you see Pat's strengths as. What will keep him selected ahead of Behrendorf or NCN (providing not more get injured like Pattinson).
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:29 am

Boycs wrote:I remember broad being talked up as England’s “enforcer” and trying to live up to that ruined his bowling for a year or so.

If your a scary bowler you don’t need to talk about it. Those that hype do so because they know without the words they aren’t really there.

Bowl properly to get them out :P


Bounce strategy as a component of fast leg theory, is a legitimate tactic. This isn't Larwood vs the Don with no helmet and 5 fielders behind square. Its not even the WI foursome with unlimited head high bouncers and 9 overs an hour bowled. What's left in the rules is legitimate proper cricket and makes for intriguing viewing.

I love a bounceathon contest between batsman and bowler. Great cricket. S Waugh Ambrose, Donald Atherton, Watson and Wahab (in the last WC), Wagner vs Aus (not as famous but "Wagnerline" has been coined) - its proper bowling and not all can do it well.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:09 pm

Paddles wrote:
bolero wrote:Cummins should bowl to his strengths. Cant be compared to Mitchell Johnson.

Let him focus on his game. England is a good side, cant be rolled over.


Of course he can, as can any bowler who bowls fast and bangs it in short.

More interested in what you see Pat's strengths as. What will keep him selected ahead of Behrendorf or NCN (providing not more get injured like Pattinson).


Paddles, pace.

NCN or Behrendorf are atleast 5-7 kmph slower than Cummins on an average.

If Cummins can maintain his fitness, would be a handful.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:12 pm

Mitchell J was different he had the left arm over the wicket angle bowling straight into the body.

Literally terrorised the English batsmen last. Cummins doesnt have the Johnson angle, he would have to maintain his pace and not get injured a la Pattinson.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:53 pm

bolero wrote:Mitchell J was different he had the left arm over the wicket angle bowling straight into the body.

Literally terrorised the English batsmen last. Cummins doesnt have the Johnson angle, he would have to maintain his pace and not get injured a la Pattinson.


I think its just talk to keep England guessing. I expect Cummins to bowl how he normally bowls.
Its obviously upset Paddles that he's even going to be selected. :)

Behrendorf :lol: He's a T20 trundler.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:37 pm

Paddles wrote:
Boycs wrote:I remember broad being talked up as England’s “enforcer” and trying to live up to that ruined his bowling for a year or so.

If your a scary bowler you don’t need to talk about it. Those that hype do so because they know without the words they aren’t really there.

Bowl properly to get them out :P


Bounce strategy as a component of fast leg theory, is a legitimate tactic. This isn't Larwood vs the Don with no helmet and 5 fielders behind square. Its not even the WI foursome with unlimited head high bouncers and 9 overs an hour bowled. What's left in the rules is legitimate proper cricket and makes for intriguing viewing.

I love a bounceathon contest between batsman and bowler. Great cricket. S Waugh Ambrose, Donald Atherton, Watson and Wahab (in the last WC), Wagner vs Aus (not as famous but "Wagnerline" has been coined) - its proper bowling and not all can do it well.


Yeah but Broad is not one of those named bowlers. He’s good but he’s not in the same style as Donald or ambrose

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:16 pm

bolero wrote:Mitchell J was different he had the left arm over the wicket angle bowling straight into the body.

Literally terrorised the English batsmen last. Cummins doesnt have the Johnson angle, he would have to maintain his pace and not get injured a la Pattinson.


Oh - the ol' completely different right arm fast and bangs it in to the left arm fast who bangs it in. Gotcha. Unless you think Mitch J lacked pace?

(We'll just ignore that there's right and left handed batsmen to help support your theory.)

I'm sorry, but right arm, left arm, or ambidexterious, anyone right now who bowls fast and bangs it in short for the next whee while in time will draw Mitch Johnson comparisons from players, media and fans alike whether you like it or not due to different release arm angles.

And tell Donald and Ambrose that a right armer lacks the angle to intimidate a right handed batsman. Or Thommo and Lillee. Or Marshall. Its not nice from any angle having short stuff directed straight at your upperbody and head when its fast.

A bouncer needs a left arm over the wicket Johnson angle now to terrorise? Never heard something so ridiculous.
Last edited by Paddles on Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:35 pm

Left arm is less common so more batsmen are less in tune with it, but I wouldn't say the left/right change has an impact on your pace and menace other than in its rate of occurrence. Just like how left-handed batsmen can throw some bowlers off their line because it just looks wrong and is practised less.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:39 pm

Boycs wrote:Left arm is less common so more batsmen are less in tune with it, but I wouldn't say the left/right change has an impact on your pace and menace other than in its rate of occurrence. Just like how left-handed batsmen can throw some bowlers off their line because it just looks wrong and is practised less.


If this were true - then right arm around (exaggerates the angle and) is even less common, though a common threat of Malcolm Marshall - who had no issue taking heads off over the wicket. Right arm can bowl around the wicket - much to many people's disdain.

If the batsman has a technical stance or bat stroke issue to facing the short ball, bowlers will find it on either side of the wicket with either arm by peppering him. End of the day - the batsman does NOT have to play a shot. But it takes raw nerves of steel to emulate S Waugh (horrid player of short bowling with a poor hook shot at the start of his career who later learned famously to not hit the ball with bat or glove) and just let the ball hit you rather than trying to play a poor hook or ghastly fend.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:37 pm

Boycs wrote:Left arm is less common so more batsmen are less in tune with it, but I wouldn't say the left/right change has an impact on your pace and menace other than in its rate of occurrence. Just like how left-handed batsmen can throw some bowlers off their line because it just looks wrong and is practised less.


I endorse this.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:41 pm

Katto wrote:
bolero wrote:Mitchell J was different he had the left arm over the wicket angle bowling straight into the body.

Literally terrorised the English batsmen last. Cummins doesnt have the Johnson angle, he would have to maintain his pace and not get injured a la Pattinson.


I think its just talk to keep England guessing. I expect Cummins to bowl how he normally bowls.
Its obviously upset Paddles that he's even going to be selected. :)

Behrendorf :lol: He's a T20 trundler.


Paddles is upset about Cummins. I perfectly understand.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:48 pm

Paddles wrote:
Boycs wrote:I remember broad being talked up as England’s “enforcer” and trying to live up to that ruined his bowling for a year or so.

If your a scary bowler you don’t need to talk about it. Those that hype do so because they know without the words they aren’t really there.

Bowl properly to get them out :P


Bounce strategy as a component of fast leg theory, is a legitimate tactic. This isn't Larwood vs the Don with no helmet and 5 fielders behind square. Its not even the WI foursome with unlimited head high bouncers and 9 overs an hour bowled. What's left in the rules is legitimate proper cricket and makes for intriguing viewing.

I love a bounceathon contest between batsman and bowler. Great cricket. S Waugh Ambrose, Donald Atherton, Watson and Wahab (in the last WC), Wagner vs Aus (not as famous but "Wagnerline" has been coined) - its proper bowling and not all can do it well.


I remember watching the Bodyline TV series. The guy who played Douglas Jardine was sinister, the closest I can compare on captaincy aggression was with Hansie Cronje, one of the most ruthless captains I have watched.

Larwood was given a specific target and field setting. Loved the series.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:17 pm


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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:17 pm

Bodyline part 1.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:42 pm

https://youtu.be/YkceB_9kpNo

Enter the Don. Bodyline 2. Meanwhile Jardine becomes captain of England.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:00 pm

bolero wrote:
Boycs wrote:Left arm is less common so more batsmen are less in tune with it, but I wouldn't say the left/right change has an impact on your pace and menace other than in its rate of occurrence. Just like how left-handed batsmen can throw some bowlers off their line because it just looks wrong and is practised less.


I endorse this.


Not when teams play NZ, Pak and Aus they're not:

Amir, Riaz, Starc (and formerly Johnson). Pakistan has more left armers than these two out n about like the slower but wilier Sohail Tanvir and another faster one whose name escapes me presently [edit M Irfan and J Khan]. The NZ attack is a touch slower but has bounceathon Wagner and faster swinger Boult. McClenahan a common bumper server in the white ball stuff.

India had Zaheer up until a few years ago, and still have Nehra in T20. Both had abililities to find an extra yard.

South Africas Wayne Parnell has been around a long time.

Left arm fast or fast/med is not as uncommon as a chinaman. And theres quite a few chinamen around these days too.

[edit - and I forgot to mention my favourite from Bangladesh - Mustafizur]

England's clear lack of them is another matter entirely but ypu did have Sidebottom of recent times even if Willey has not ever bowled a bouncer in anger.
Last edited by Paddles on Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:22 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:17 pm

Sidebottom is all I can think of. And David Willey and Reece topley come up in a google search

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:19 pm

Boycs wrote:Sidebottom is all I can think of. And David Willey and Reece topley come up in a google search

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/feb/03/england-left-arm-pace-world-cup-australia-south-africa
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:44 am

https://youtu.be/m8gjR1nklug

Harold Larwood was quick, wasn't he? Bodyline 4.Jardine went on to become one of the most hated cricketers in Australia.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:29 am

bolero wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Bounce strategy as a component of fast leg theory, is a legitimate tactic. This isn't Larwood vs the Don with no helmet and 5 fielders behind square. Its not even the WI foursome with unlimited head high bouncers and 9 overs an hour bowled. What's left in the rules is legitimate proper cricket and makes for intriguing viewing.

I love a bounceathon contest between batsman and bowler. Great cricket. S Waugh Ambrose, Donald Atherton, Watson and Wahab (in the last WC), Wagner vs Aus (not as famous but "Wagnerline" has been coined) - its proper bowling and not all can do it well.


I remember watching the Bodyline TV series. The guy who played Douglas Jardine was sinister, the closest I can compare on captaincy aggression was with Hansie Cronje, one of the most ruthless captains I have watched.

Larwood was given a specific target and field setting. Loved the series.


Hugo Weaving....also played Mr Smith in The Matrix

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:02 am

Katto wrote:
bolero wrote:
I remember watching the Bodyline TV series. The guy who played Douglas Jardine was sinister, the closest I can compare on captaincy aggression was with Hansie Cronje, one of the most ruthless captains I have watched.

Larwood was given a specific target and field setting. Loved the series.


Hugo Weaving....also played Mr Smith in The Matrix


Yes. The guy looked crooked, just like Jardine.

Ruthless, win at all and any cost.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:28 am

bolero wrote:https://youtu.be/m8gjR1nklug

Harold Larwood was quick, wasn't he? Bodyline 4.Jardine went on to become one of the most hated cricketers in Australia.



I happen to be reading a Larwood biography as we speak

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:34 am

bolero wrote:https://youtu.be/m8gjR1nklug

Harold Larwood was quick, wasn't he? Bodyline 4.Jardine went on to become one of the most hated cricketers in Australia.


He was a right armer - that much is certain.

In cricketing folklore he goes down as one of the fastest fast men. Larwood took up residence in Aus and was fairly popular by most accounts, a "good mining bloke just following orders".
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:36 am

Boycs wrote:
bolero wrote:https://youtu.be/m8gjR1nklug

Harold Larwood was quick, wasn't he? Bodyline 4.Jardine went on to become one of the most hated cricketers in Australia.



I happen to be reading a Larwood biography as we speak


You take your Ashes build up seriously. I like the former player panel interviews - though I've heard more than enough about 74/75 for 1 lifetime. Bit over Bodyline as well. And 2005 for that matter (which replaced the already ad nauseam discussion of 81 Botham Ashes).
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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:32 am

Jardine was born in my hometown Mumbai (then Bombay).

I was not aware of this.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:39 am

Different times. I think most Aussie cricket fans these days would be of the view that he did what he had to do.
If not him then someone else would've implemented this tactic at some point. Its all part of the evolution of the game.

Having said that, there's not much regard for history nowadays anyway.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:00 am

Paddles wrote:
Boycs wrote:

I happen to be reading a Larwood biography as we speak


You take your Ashes build up seriously. I like the former player panel interviews - though I've heard more than enough about 74/75 for 1 lifetime. Bit over Bodyline as well. And 2005 for that matter (which replaced the already ad nauseam discussion of 81 Botham Ashes).


I fancy learning more about the 1950s ashes. I have a copy of the 1956 (I think it is) wisden covering that years ashes

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:01 am

Katto wrote:Different times. I think most Aussie cricket fans these days would be of the view that he did what he had to do.
If not him then someone else would've implemented this tactic at some point. Its all part of the evolution of the game.

Having said that, there's not much regard for history nowadays anyway.



I think that is how people see it too. Larwood himself was warmly welcomed back to Australia when he emigrated out there later in his life.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:18 am

Larwood was a coal miner's son. There is a current Indian fast bowler who is a coal miner's son.

Guess who ?

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:56 am

yadav

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby bolero » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:15 am

Yes

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:38 am

crybaby Marcus :crybaby:

https://au.sports.yahoo.com/cricket/a/3 ... id-warner/

I agree with Warner. It's what the fans want to see. It adds to the drama of test cricket.
Professional sport is also the entertainment business. If you cant stand the heat then go and work in an office job. Everyone has choices.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Mick180461 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:58 am

Katto wrote:crybaby Marcus :crybaby:

https://au.sports.yahoo.com/cricket/a/3 ... id-warner/

I agree with Warner. It's what the fans want to see. It adds to the drama of test cricket.
Professional sport is also the entertainment business. If you cant stand the heat then go and work in an office job. Everyone has choices.

It's something about the name warne(r). It means you have to be a total D*** H*** and if you put an R on the end it means you have twice as big a D*** H***.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Paddles » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:31 am

Oh - Warner was doing so well this year too. Now he wants to turn test cricket into state of origin?!
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:35 am

Davey :cool:

He can afford to be bullish. After all the Aussies are coming off blazing form having drawn a test series in Bangladesh. :)

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:14 pm

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/ ... ark-taylor

'Very difficult for ECB to pick Stokes for Ashes' - Mark Taylor

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby raja » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:05 pm

Yes, Larwood emigrated to Australia and, despite all that happened in 1932-33, was well-received there.
Tyson too emigrated and became a popular figure in Australia.

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Boycs » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:04 am

So which places are up for grabs in the Aussie team? Which batting positions will there be a scrap for in the next few weeks?

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Re: 2017/2018 Ashes Tour - Pre-Series Discussion

Postby Katto » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:37 pm

Boycs wrote:So which places are up for grabs in the Aussie team? Which batting positions will there be a scrap for in the next few weeks?


6 & 7

the rest are pretty much settled

should be barring injury...
1. Renshaw
2. Warner
3. Khawaja
4. Smith
5. Handscomb
6. ???
7. ???
8. Starc
9. Cummins
10. Lyon
11. Hazlewood