Moeen Ali

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Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:09 pm

Am opening a separate thread for him here because I think we don't do him enough justice.
Not just we folks on this forum, but cricket pundits at large.

Today, he played another fine knock, giving Root support and taking England from a precarious 190/5 to a much more comfortable 357/5 position. A solid, unbroken, partnership of 167 in which his contribution is 61.

I've always said Moeen's contribution cannot be judged in statistics.

His batting average is 36-odd, his bowling average is 42-odd.

Both these stats are not spectacular.

Yet, very often his runs have come at a crucial time, he's picked up wickets at crucial game-changing moments.
Stats don't reflect this.

His bowling strike rate (which is most crucial in Tests, because wicket-taking is so crucial) is better than many legendary offbreak bowlers, including Prasanna, Tayfield, Lance Gibbs and even Harbhajan.

And yet, we see him often discussed disparagingly - typical comments are like "He might be given a bowl to give Broad/Stokes a break" or "He's a useful player to have, since he can bowl a bit too, while scoring a few quick runs with the bat". And this has been happening from the day he made his Test debut, to this day.

I think Moeen deserves more respect. Players like Root and Stokes might be stars, but it is players like Moeen who don't shine so visibly but provide the buffer that allows guys like Root and Stokes to stand out.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:10 pm

The key stat to look for, esp in Tests where wicket-taking is key (even if you concede a few) is bowling strike rate.

Moeen's is 68. So when Moeen gets the ball, he picks up a wicket on average earlier than many illustrious offbreak bowlers.

Compare with some other offbreak bowlers:

Ravichandran Ashwin 52.5
Muralitharan 55
Graeme Swann 60
Jim Laker 62.3
Nathan Lyon 63
Saeed Ajmal 65.1
Moeen Ali 68.0
Harbhajan Singh 68.5
Erapalli Prasanna 75
Ashley Mallett 75
Roger Harper 78.5
Hugh Tayfield 79.8
Shivlal Yadav 81.9
Tauseef Ahmed 83.6
Tim May 87.6
Lance Gibbs 87.7
Sonny Ramadhin 88.2
Srinivas Venkataraghavan 95.3
Ray Illingworth 97.8
Fred Titmus 98.8
Pat Pocock 99.2
John Emburey 104.7
-----

Needless to mention, he has a better batting average than each one of the players on this list.

Am not saying he's a better spinner than any of these. Or even a better player.

Am just saying, let's give him a little more credit for his contribution to England in Tests.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:15 pm

We need to also remember that unlike an Ashwin or a Murali, Moeen's home conditions are not spinner friendly.

Yet he's taken 52 of his 98 wickets in England at an average of 40 in 22 Tests.
He's been in Test cricket only since 2014 - and it already feels like ages. That's how much he has contributed with bat or ball.

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Moeen Ali

Postby Going South » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:10 pm

That's BS.
Moreno Ali is an average bowler.
Superlatives are undeserving to him.
He is worse than jadeja who has a far better strike rate at 61.

Hater in you omitted jadeja in this list won't surprise me. Huh.

Image
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Moeen has only 2 four wicket haul and 2 five wicket hauls

I always find a bowlers worth and experience based on number of 5 wicket hauls he has under his belt.

When moeen reach that lets talk. Until then moeen is BELOW AVERAGE NOBODY.

Just because he is Muslim does not mean he gets a thread to discuss his "achievements" ? Wow.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:57 pm

I just think he shouldn't be our front line spinner. I've not issue with him being in the team and have no issue with his batting and supportive bowling. But I'm just not sure I can agree with our "strike" spinner being less of a spinner than our front line fast bowlers are fast bowlers.

But it's also the situation with spinners in county cricket in general, and though Rashid may have more ability as a bowler I'm not sure we. An fit both of them in a test team at the same time

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Katto » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:23 am

he annoys the f*** out of me

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:51 am

Lol why?

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:34 am

If the pitches remains true today we could see a classy Moeen century today

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Katto » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:27 am

Boycs wrote:Lol why?


stupid beard and his general self righteousness

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:32 am

He struck me as somewhat meek and self effacing?

What did he do to be self righteous?

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:22 pm

Going South wrote:That's BS.
Moreno Ali is an average bowler.
Superlatives are undeserving to him.
He is worse than jadeja who has a far better strike rate at 61.

Hater in you omitted jadeja in this list won't surprise me. Huh.

Moeen has only 2 four wicket haul and 2 five wicket hauls

I always find a bowlers worth and experience based on number of 5 wicket hauls he has under his belt.

When moeen reach that lets talk. Until then moeen is BELOW AVERAGE NOBODY.

Just because he is Muslim does not mean he gets a thread to discuss his "achievements" ? Wow.


:grin:

Looks like you didn't read my post properly. I said - "compare with some offbreak bowlers".
Not just any spinners.

Also why I included Harbhajan, not Kumble.
Tauseef not Qadir.
May not Warne.
Ramadhin not Valentine.

Surely a bowler's strike rate is FAR more important than 5-wicket hauls?
Moeen doesn't even get that much bowling in an innings.
When he does bowl, he gets important breakthroughs.

And most of the times, he's bowling in unfriendly conditions.

When I see Moeen Ali, I see an underrated cricketer and feel he deserves special mention. Hence this thread.
You see a Muslim.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:28 pm

Also, minor detail: Tradeja has played 22 of his 30 Tests in India.
Spinners' paradise.

For Tests, I'd pick Moeen any day before Tradeja.
10/10 times.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Misty » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:40 pm

raja wrote:Also, minor detail: Tradeja has played 22 of his 30 Tests in India.
Spinners' paradise.

For Tests, I'd pick Moeen any day before Tradeja.
10/10 times.


Mo is 7 hour hero next game,he might out in single digit, no comparison between Jadeja @ great spin bowler vs Mo @ handy batsman for FLAT TRACK BULLY Tittel than you describe above.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:59 pm

I was shocked to learn that Moeen is now the second fastest to 2000 runs and 100 wickets for England after Tony Greig. What were botham and flintoff doing?! That doesn't seem right.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:01 pm

That's Moeen Ali for you.
Quietly delivers. Match after match.
While everyone is getting wowed by Root, Bairstow and Stokes.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:21 pm

Hmmm.

If England unearth a quality front line spinner would you keep Moeen in the team?

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:52 pm

Boycs wrote:Hmmm.

If England unearth a quality front line spinner would you keep Moeen in the team?

Unless he's of the calibre of Swann, yes.

I'd pick Moeen in the side before the likes of Rashid, Ansari, Batty and co.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:19 pm

Oh he's better than them other that Rashid who has enjoyed white ball success.

Leach of Somerset is an up and coming tweaker

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:35 pm

Moeen Ali: England's quiet achiever

Moeen Ali isn't really a 'Talk nah' sort of guy.

If he was, he might have wandered over to his new captain, Joe Root, and asked 'Who's your first spinner now?' after the wicket of Hashim Amla. He had heard his bowling described as an "add-on" ahead of this match by Root, after all, and seen Liam Dawson promoted to first spin option.

Or he might have slammed down his bat after his 87 and pointed out the injustice of his demotion from No. 4 to No. 7 in the batting order since England's last Test. He had scored 190 runs in Chennai (146 in the first innings and 44 in the second), after all.

But he isn't that sort. So instead of basking in the glory of some really quite remarkable statistics - on Friday he became the quickest (in terms of Tests played) England-born allrounder in history to achieve the milestone of 2,000 runs and 100 wickets, also reaching the landmark quicker than undisputed greats such as Garry Sobers, Jacques Kallis, Richard Hadlee, Imran Khan, Ian Botham and Kapil Dev - he laughed at the absurdity of such a state of affairs.

"In my garden I was better than Sobers," he joked as he thought back to childhood games and what must have seemed unachievable feats. "If someone had said I'd play more than one Test I wouldn't have believed it. I would never have thought I'd have 100 Test wickets."

Maybe that modesty has counted against him at times. During the Dhaka Test in October, Moeen claimed a crucial wicket - that of the well-set Mominul Haque - on his way to a five-wicket haul and afterwards was asked whether it was a cleverly-disguised arm-ball.

"Nah," he answered. "It was a normal ball. It just didn't spin."

It was similar here. Asked if he was excited by the apparent turn on offer from this surface, he answered "No, if I get too excited I'll just start bowling pies again."

It was wonderfully honest, of course. Miles away from the bragging we hear from some sports stars and a reminder of the fine role-model Moeen provides in every way. And that's admirable in itself. But whereas the likes of Shane Warne might have taken such moments to build the mystery of his art - talking of different types of leg-breaks, sliders or googlies - Moeen was happy to be taken for what he is: a decent bowler doing his best in a job he never thought he would find himself doing. This is not a golden era for English spin for many reasons we need not revisit and Moeen has sometimes suffered for being the best the nation has to offer right now. If there's better out there on the county circuit, they are not making it especially obvious.

Statistics don't always tell the full story, of course. This latest one, for example, doesn't tell you that Moeen would need to take 100 more wickets in his next four-and-a-half Tests to equal Botham's record of 2000 runs and 200 wickets from 42 Tests. It doesn't tell you that Moeen's batting average is more than 20 lower than Sobers' and his bowling average his almost 20 higher than Hadlee's. Nobody, anywhere, is suggesting he is better than either or any of them.

But that doesn't mean he is not a hugely valuable player for England. Or a hugely versatile one who has batted everywhere from No. 1 to No. 9 in the order and never given so much as a grumble when he has been the one obliged to move out of position for the good of the team. He even managed a little smile when Stuart Broad, another man who enjoyed a terrific all-round day, took a shy at the stumps in the final over and conceded four overthrows off Moeen's bowling. Imagine roles were reversed…

Moeen's bowling has several positive qualities. Most noticeably, he bowls quicker than most spinners. He also spins the ball more sharply than most, gains more drift than many and has an equable temperament that seems capable of withstanding those days when the batsmen get on top of him. He's never carried away and never down on himself. "Pressure?" he responded to a question about how he was feeling going into this game. "I don't feel pressure at all. It's only a game of cricket…"

He's not perfect, of course. He does not have the accuracy or control of the very best spinners, he does not have the variation or subtly of some and he is still learning ways to out-smart well-set batsmen over the course of a spell. There were times, particularly when he was bowling against the best Pakistan and India batsmen, when he didn't look as if he had a lot of confidence in his ability to make the breakthrough.

He takes more top-order wickets than might be imagined, though. Of those 100 wickets, 34 have been batsmen in the top three, 18 have been those batting at four and five and 18 more have been those batting at six and seven. That's 58 from the top six and 70 from the top seven. They include David Warner and Mohammad Hafeez four times each, Misbah-ul-Haq and Ajinkya Rahane three times each and Kumar Sangakkara, Steven Smith, Younis Khan, Virat Kohli and Cheteshwar Pujara twice each. There aren't too many cheap wickets there.

He's had to reinvent himself on the way. When he was first selected, in 2014, it was partly with a view to utilising his doosra - at the time a huge weapon for Saeed Ajmal and apparently accepted by the ICC. But within a few months that was effectively outlawed and Moeen was obliged to add pace and bite to his bowling and rely on the somewhat more prosaic qualities of drift and turn and natural variation.

At first he prospered as a bowler as batsmen tried to thrash him out of the attack. Think of the start of the Ashes in 2015: Smith and Warner looked as if they wanted to annihilate him at Cardiff. But he kept his head and got his men and gradually sides realised that the best way to play him was not to go after him, thereby offering him an opportunity, but to sit back, milk him and wait for the release ball. His bowling average since the start of 2016 - 51.20 - reflects the greater struggle that wicket-taking has become.

It may be that Root's captaincy frees him a little. Root has told him to attack more and worry about conceding runs less. He has told him Dawson is around to do the holding job and Moeen is given licence, with bat and ball, to attack. It might just work.

The success of his batting has been less of a surprise. From almost the time he could hold a bat he was impressing in clubs around Birmingham. And while he might never be the most consistent or reliable, much the same could be said about David Gower. Quietly, Moeen is putting together a decent record as a Test batsman, here falling 13 short of what would have been a fifth century in his most recent 14 Tests. The average is creeping up. So is his assurance at the crease. In the same period - since the start of 2016 - his Test batting average is 48.54 He is a hell of a player to come in at No. 7.

You suspect he would rather bat higher. But he's far from ego-centric and he understands the reason why first Ben Stokes and Jos Buttler and now Jonny Bairstow have been promoted ahead of him. He won't moan. He won't cause any discomfort in the dressing room or on tour. He knows that England's all-round depth - the presence of Stokes and Chris Woakes and him - give England a depth with bat and ball that must be the envy of most sides around the world. He knows - they all know - that such depth can take them places.

Besides, deeds are often more eloquent than words. So when Amla was beaten by a sharply turning offbreak - the first ball Moeen had bowled to him - there was no need to say anything more. And when he smashed Morne Morkel through the covers or flicked Vernon Philander through midwicket, there was no need to tell anyone what a fine batsman he is.

This England camp know they have a gem in Moeen. They know they have a man who can fulfil almost any role with the bat and who will be unflustered with the ball whether he's bowled India out in a Test or been hit out of the ground in the UAE. They know that, on good days and bad, he'll be upbeat and calm in the dressing room and committed and capable on the pitch. He's not underestimated by them at all and maybe, as the cheers for his wickets and the ovation for his runs suggested, he's not underestimated by England supporters, either.

Moeen Ali isn't really a 'Talk nah' sort of guy. And he's all the better for that.


George Dobell is a senior correspondent at ESPNcricinfo

© ESPN Sports Media Ltd.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-s ... 09715.html

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:42 pm

These are his dismissals. Plenty of recognised batsmen, so not many cheap wickets.

Heading the list is Tradeja. :-)
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... an_summary

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:30 pm

Question then: what statistical quirk is causing his high average if he is taking good wickets? I'd expect even a batting all rounder to have a sub-40 average with the ball.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Misty » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:33 pm

4 wickets and 87 great for' once a lifetime' for Mo, I guess.I think under ROOTY, he is too hot.
But look at PHILLY and BROAD both hits 50 on road, if England win on day 5, I stops playing cricket for sure.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:42 pm

The problem is, he is taking GOOD wickets not CHEAP wickets.
If he'd picked up lower-order cheap wickets (like Tradeja or Trashwin do), his bowling average would be far more impressive.

Anyway, BCCI's star allrounder of yesteryear, Ravi Shastri, had a bowling SR of 104 and a bowling average of 40.96.
And he started his career as a pure bowler, batting at no11.

West Indies' star allrounder of yesteryear, Carl Hooper, was considered a batting allrounder. Picked up 114 wickets at an average of 49+.
Australia's star allrounder of yesteryear, Greg Matthews, had a bowling average of 48+.

Ajit Agarkar is at 47-odd.

More recently, Mark Craig of NZ. Or Angelo Matthews of SL have 40+ bowling averages.

For Moeen, I can only hope that bowling average gets better as he takes more wickets.
Maybe he needs to bowl more at the tail and pick up some cheap wickets.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:44 pm

Going South wrote:That's BS.
Moreno Ali is an average bowler.
Superlatives are undeserving to him.
He is worse than jadeja who has a far better strike rate at 61.

Hater in you omitted jadeja in this list won't surprise me. Huh.

Moeen has only 2 four wicket haul and 2 five wicket hauls

I always find a bowlers worth and experience based on number of 5 wicket hauls he has under his belt.

When moeen reach that lets talk. Until then moeen is BELOW AVERAGE NOBODY.

Just because he is Muslim does not mean he gets a thread to discuss his "achievements" ? Wow.


You must be happy. He picked up only a 4-fer, not a 5-fer. :grin:

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Going South » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:15 pm

How many 5 fers so far? Not enough?
Dilli bahut door hai

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Re: England vs South Africa: 1st Test; July 6-10, 2017 at Lords

Postby Misty » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:43 pm

Mick180461 wrote:
Boycs wrote:I must say I'm leaning towards agreeing with raja about Moeen after today

Alan Border once took 11/96 in a test, Michael Clarke 6/9, Simon Katich 6/55, Sanath Jayasuriya 9/74 (2 innings) are you going to call them test class spinners? Jason Gillrspie 201* in a test match are you going to call him a Test class batsman?
Consistancy is what makes a test class player, the ability to back up match after match on different Wickets against different opposition on cold days, hot days, fast wkts, slow wkts, spinning wkts, seamimg wkts, flat wkts. Moeen Ali has not proven he can do it on a consistant basis and until he does i will continue to call him a average test Spinner.

Triple centurion Nair, he dropped from indian team just announced for Lanka series.I doubt MO can take more than 3 wits again at Nottingham or Manchester but for OVAL he could be hero or zero with the ball.

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Re: England vs South Africa: 1st Test; July 6-10, 2017 at Lords

Postby Paddles » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:56 am

Mick180461 wrote:
Boycs wrote:I must say I'm leaning towards agreeing with raja about Moeen after today

Alan Border once took 11/96 in a test, Michael Clarke 6/9, Simon Katich 6/55, Sanath Jayasuriya 9/74 (2 innings) are you going to call them test class spinners? Jason Gillrspie 201* in a test match are you going to call him a Test class batsman?
Consistancy is what makes a test class player, the ability to back up match after match on different Wickets against different opposition on cold days, hot days, fast wkts, slow wkts, spinning wkts, seamimg wkts, flat wkts. Moeen Ali has not proven he can do it on a consistant basis and until he does i will continue to call him a average test Spinner.


Hold on, Sanath Jayasuriya was certainly a test class spinner. 98 wickets at 34 was no fluke, nor were his 202 wickets at 33 for FC combined. A very underestimated all rounder in my opinion, with Mushtaq Mohammad, that the critics are far too quick to dismiss their true all-round value thereof.

Allan Border himself has subsequently post-playing opined that he should have bowled himself more often. He would often wait until his vice captain would say to him - why not roll your arm over? Often he would have Mathews plus another spinner in the side, but if it were just him and say Peter Taylor or Gregg Mathews, AB was more than happy to bowl. Mark Waugh curtailed this at the back end of AB's career with his own off breaks. Was AB a test quality spinner? Not so much as an attacking option, no. But he certainly could hold an end up economically and an e/r of 2.28 is very impressive enabling his fast men to recuperate He certainly could have bowled a lot more, but the likes of all rounders as they were then; Steve Waugh, Greg Mathews and Mark Waugh, meant that AB was a 6th or 7th bowling option often, not a 5th. But on a 5th day, if there was turn, AB could certainly snuff out a wicket or two in the pursuit of victory.

Now Moeen, his value is not that he will ever be a Murali type magician. Nor even as good as Herath. Heck, he will likely not even reach the above average heights of Nathan Lyon (247 wickets at 33.4) - its the fact that Moeen can bat in the top 7 averaging over 35 and grind out the wickets at under 40. So looking around the nations' spinners - he has everyone in NZ beat for team value (but we hope Santner keeps improving). Before Maharaj, SA were still trying Tahir in tests, Moeen has him beat easily. I don't know who ZImbabwe are trying at the moment, West Indian Bishoo is 16 with the bat and 37 with the ball so that's close but probably in Moeen's favour for most judges.

Would Australia drop Lyon for Moeen? Probably not. Would Moeen sometimes be in the running to replace MMarsh or G Maxwell and play at 6 on numbers? Absolutely. Would Australia see the opportunity for Moeen to bat at 6, and then pay all four quicks of Pattinson, Cummins, Hazlewood and Starc and drop Lyon? You betcha!

Carl Hooper averaged 36.4 with the bat and 49 with the ball. Safe to say that Moeen has passed him as a cricketer already. Now almost every cricket fan knows that Carl Hooper wasted his prodigious talents, but Ali seems keen to suck the marrow out of the smaller bone of cricketing talent that he was served. Do I fear Moeen as a bowler when NZ play England? Not really, but I loathe the fact he often bats at 8 against us and is due for another 50 plus score so often.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/743939.html

A typical game where Ali flies under the radar to Root and Stokes, and yet arguably did just as much as anyone else to keep England in the match, and set it up for victory. Like Boycs says, to perceive Ali as a cricketer depends if you see him as a batsman who bowls or a bowler who bats first and foremost. Once viewed as a batsman first, sure he is well behind the likes of Sanath Jayasuriya, Mushtaq Mohammad and Garfield Sobers. But he's more than useful. And they're greats of the game, albeit even of the former 2 are not quite ATG. Ali's certainly no Shakib Al Hasan whichever you view him, but he's not the worst substitute running around of him in world cricket today.

And for a bright up-n-comer - have a look at this guy:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/westindies/content/player/391832.html
Elite honesty:
At the toss Faf said to Finch that you lads can bat - Finch replied "no, no we can't-we really can't".

Finch then saw Travis Head and Darcy Short start put on sun screen and said "Getting a bit optimistic aren't you?"

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Moeen Ali

Postby Mick180461 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:40 am

Paddles what do you think makes a test class performer, personally i think it's about consistentcy. Do i think Moeen Ali is a test class Cricketer yes, why? because he has the ability to perform when most needed but he has to be more consistant and his consistentcy is improving. Bowling the weakest South African side i have ever seen on a raging turner is one thing but for England to hold on to the Ashes he is going to need to score good runs batting at 5 or 6 and take a decent amount of wkts on hard flat wkts.
Yes AB under bowled himself but he was never more than a useful change bowler. The one great weakness those Windies sides had was Spinners who spun the ball away from the bat on turning wkts as Bob Holland and AB proved, not to forget what Abdul Qadir done to them in 86-87, all out 53 Qadir 6/16.

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Moeen Ali

Postby Paddles » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:00 am

Mick180461 wrote:Paddles what do you think makes a test class performer, personally i think it's about consistentcy. Do i think Moeen Ali is a test class Cricketer yes, why? because he has the ability to perform when most needed but he has to be more consistant and his consistentcy is improving. Bowling the weakest South African side i have ever seen on a raging turner is one thing but for England to hold on to the Ashes he is going to need to score good runs batting at 5 or 6 and take a decent amount of wkts on hard flat wkts.
Yes AB under bowled himself but he was never more than a useful change bowler. The one great weakness those Windies sides had was Spinners who spun the ball away from the bat on turning wkts as Bob Holland and AB proved, not to forget what Abdul Qadir done to them in 86-87, all out 53 Qadir 6/16.


I don't know how various people use the expression "test class'. But I think you and I are in total agreement that Moeen has fairly earned the reputation of a test class cricketer now. "World class" is difficult enough, but people seem to accept that vying for a position a current or contemporary World XI is a suitable explanation, thus either walking into or competing for selection in any international team. Or is test class just having a positive influence for the team, a batsman averaging over 40 for instance? We all have markers, mine are 40 for specialist batsmen, under 30 for seam bowlers. Allrounders; a batting average beats the bowling average is a good marker - but spin bowling requires more flexibility I find as their typical usefulness is in the back end of a match. So is "test class" just good enough for immediate selection in any one particular nation? That makes the standard pretty ordinary. NZ has regular walk in players who are arguably not what I'd call test class regularly batting at number 6, but play regularly due to a dearth of competition for the position coupled with a selector's preference for a certain type of player there.

I think Moeen will be smashed in Australia 2017/18 if the Ashes goes ahead. I think Anderson will be smashed. Broad will struggle, the unknowns are Woakes and whoever else England plays. Moeen is similar (and may rightfully claim to now being superior) to NZ's Mark Craig. If the pitch responds more than a bit, and he's not bowling to an All Star Indian batting line up used to be playing moderate spin, then he gets wickets. Can Moeen do anything on non-responsive pitches like Lyon and Herath can? Not anywhere near as much yet. Moeen is getting more drift these days, he is bowling slower, and giving himself a chance. Has he developed useful overspin yet? We'll see in Australia.

As for the Windies of the 1980's - this leggie gave them a horrid time at Chennai in 1988 with 16 wickets ON DEBUT.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/29299.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling

But you'd probably have to be a cricket fanatic like raja to remember him. I don't think the West Indian batting in the super team as it was post Clive Lloyd was all that spectacular. Greenidge and Viv were well in decline, Richardson and Haynes were consistently good but not head and shoulders walk ins into a World XI and the rest were regularly rotated in search of something better. The batting was certainly better at the start of the 1980s than at the end of them. But the bowling just keep ticking over with Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Marshall seemlessly taking over from Garner, Croft, Robert and Holding of the 1970's. 4 batsman averaging about 40 or over gives a solid base to any test side, but its the bowling that made and kept them special.

For Ali, I agree with Boyc's original summation. He's not the ideal leading spinner for England. He's no Underwood or Swann regular match winner. But coupled with his batting, he is a very very useful spin option allrounder for them. And he would be a viable option for all non- Asian test teams.

I'm not sure how you mean to describe consistency. I like match winners (and savers) and loathe liabilities. To be coined a match winner or saver, a player has to do it more times than to be a fluke. I wouldn't want an Ashraful (liability), who plays breath taking centuries to have a batting average well under 30*. But I would have played Afridi in more tests than he did and yet I'm not as infatuated as the masses with Ben Stokes as yet. But Stokes bats higher with a similar recklessness with less results and his seam offerings have to be assessed as against Afridi bowling spin, and some fairly fragile tails that played for Pakistan.

*http://www.espncricinfo.com/bangladesh/content/player/55988.html 6 centuries and averaging 24. Is this a world record?

There is also roles in the team to consider. A slow scoring opening batsman say, who fails to convert into hundreds, but averages over 35 could be a gem for many teams in international cricket. Someone who regularly sees off the shine, and keeps wickets in tact until the better time to bat later in the day. But not ideal for a middle order spot. Similarly, a 5th bowling option or even a 3rd seamer who is incredibly parsimonious could well help the team - even if not a regular wicket taker. These selections are possibilities because the even the most consistent like Bradman got single figure scores in between his double and tripple hundreds.

We're all cricket fans, and part of this beautiful game of test cricket is the complexities of roles and available strategies for teams to pursue due in no small part to wearing balls, wearing pitches, meaning good and bad times to bat, meaning good and less good bowling conditions for each bowler, and the need for leading seam bowlers to recuperate.
Last edited by Paddles on Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Elite honesty:
At the toss Faf said to Finch that you lads can bat - Finch replied "no, no we can't-we really can't".

Finch then saw Travis Head and Darcy Short start put on sun screen and said "Getting a bit optimistic aren't you?"

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Re: England vs South Africa: 1st Test; July 6-10, 2017 at Lords

Postby Mick180461 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:42 am

I do remember Hirwani Paddles due to the fact that he beat Bob Massies record by 1 run. Didn't last much longer thoug only ended with about 60 test wkts all up.

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Re: England vs South Africa: 1st Test; July 6-10, 2017 at Lords

Postby Paddles » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:48 am

Mick180461 wrote:I do remember Hirwani Paddles due to the fact that he beat Bob Massies record by 1 run. Didn't last much longer thoug only ended with about 60 test wkts all up.


Lasted longer than Massie, though. Hirwani tormented NZ soon after that Windies debut, to then fade. Massie appeared to wilt immediately after debut at all cricket levels. What do we take from this? Not to burst on the scene with such a storm?

Be interesting for someone to go through and find all the spectacular debuts, say 10 fors and scores over say 150, and see how the players ended up. Actually, I think Bob Massie would be the perfect person to write the book :D
Elite honesty:
At the toss Faf said to Finch that you lads can bat - Finch replied "no, no we can't-we really can't".

Finch then saw Travis Head and Darcy Short start put on sun screen and said "Getting a bit optimistic aren't you?"

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Re: England vs South Africa: 1st Test; July 6-10, 2017 at Lords

Postby Misty » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:46 am

1893 english Essex bowler took 10 wickets on debut but England were beaten

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Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:55 am

Paddles wrote:For Ali, I agree with Boyc's original summation.


That's a first :P

But yes. Before this game and before raja's well reasoned argument, I rated Ali as a cricketer and as a batting all-rounder. I was happy with his presence in the team. I didn't, however, believe that he should fulfil the role of our front line spinner. I believe that in general, unless there are specific one-off pitch conditions, a team needs a front line spinner as one part of their attack. A player whose first job is spin bowling. It's fine to have a batting all-rounder to support the attack (in fact it can be wonderful) but I think Moeen was being asked to fill a role that required front line spin attack skill levels, yet he was filling it with batting all-rounder skill levels.

I don't think you can use Jayasuriya as an example of how Moeen could succeed because Sri Lanka weren't relying on Jayasuriya as their front line spinner. Jayasuriya had a better bowling average but in Tests he was so much more of an occasional bowler, he took 98 wickets over 110 Tests, not 40-odd. He bowled 8,000 deliveries in 110 Tests, whereas Moeen has bowled over 6,500 in 42 Tests.

Carl Hooper might be a better analogy. The only struggle there being that Hooper's team arguably didn't need a front line spinner because their pace attack was so consistently good. England's isn't that good.

We will see!

Since this Test, I have found myself slightly more open to the idea that Ali might evolve into a Hooper-esque role for England, or perhaps even better with the ball, however England have more of a need for a front-line spinner than the West Indies of that era did. So it might work, but I don't think we should give up on the search for a tweaker of greater skill just in case.

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Moeen Ali

Postby Paddles » Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:59 pm

Problem is - is 2 batting allrounders, Ali with Stokes a good idea? As part of a 5 prong attack - it makes more sense than a 6 prong attack with only 4 specialist batsmen. England's balance is all askew with a 6 prong attack. Woakes return will help add more batting depth, and possibly the balance will look better then.

I don't think teams need a front line spinner for all conditions if they have a player like Ali and a good seam attack.
Elite honesty:
At the toss Faf said to Finch that you lads can bat - Finch replied "no, no we can't-we really can't".

Finch then saw Travis Head and Darcy Short start put on sun screen and said "Getting a bit optimistic aren't you?"

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Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:59 pm

But do we have a good seam attack? I'd say fairly good but there are weaknesses and if Jimmy goes shortly it might affect things.

I'm not a fan of picking our bowlers based on their batting ability either though to be fair we've moved away from it a little bit and woakes is certainly an able bowler.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:13 pm

Very interesting discussion here, esp on Moeen Ali and his role, comparing with other cricketers.

This discussion was happening on the Test match thread - I just thought it belongs here on the Moeen Ali thread. Otherwise, it would get archived like our Live Match threads and we'd be searching if we wanted to revisit this discussion.

Please therefore continue this discussion here. Thanks.

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Re: England vs South Africa: 1st Test; July 6-10, 2017 at Lords

Postby raja » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:30 pm

Paddles wrote:Carl Hooper averaged 36.4 with the bat and 49 with the ball. Safe to say that Moeen has passed him as a cricketer already. Now almost every cricket fan knows that Carl Hooper wasted his prodigious talents, but Ali seems keen to suck the marrow out of the smaller bone of cricketing talent that he was served.

:grin:
Love this statement.

In general, agree with your points, Paddles.

It is nobody's case that Moeen is in the league of the greats, even if his 2000/100 achievement might suggest otherwise.

I see him as one of those utility cricketers who you usually find in limited-overs, not often in Tests.

Their utility is often not visible in their overall stats - it's how they deliver in match situations that underlines their value.

The example of that England vs NZ Test you gave is a good one. Root-Stokes rescued Engand, then Moeen turned the screw further.
When NZ batted, they were going really well - Moeen broke the opening partnership of 130-odd, dismissing Latham.
Williamson got a hundred - again it was Moeen who dismissed him.
In the second innings, he got useful runs too.

This is the type of utility cricketer that a captain wouldn't mind having, I think.

Am reminded of Abid Ali who played for India in the late 60s-early 70s. His stats look very ordinary - but he was one of these utility cricketers. Would pick up a couple of top order wickets, get 30-odd to show some resistance. Was one of the finest fielders in the side, a bundle of energy. Of course, India was overall a weak team then, so these "small" achievements were notable for the time.

But at least Abid was officially opening bowler. Moeen isn't even that - till not so long ago, anything he contributed with the ball was almost like a bonus. And yet most of his wickets are top-order batsmen!

Pakistan had an allrounder, Wasim Raja, in the 70s, early 80s. Very useful batsman (check out his stats against the formidable West Indies!) - and a useful leg-break bowler. And yet he wasn't necessarily a regular in the side.

Moeen may get better from here - or he may not. Anybody's guess.

I'm just saying, while he IS delivering, he offers something to Cook Root as captain.

And I like the fact that Moeen has delivered both at home and overseas (though he struggled in South Africa).

I fully expect him to struggle in Australia - both with bat and ball. The bounce and pace (and Aussie quality) will bounce him out every single time. And his bowling might well be fodder for the likes of Warner and Smith.

But, living in the now, which England spinner (that everyone seems to be yearning for so much) looks high-quality anyway?

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:40 pm

And you are right about the West Indies.

They were a true powerhouse under Clive Lloyd. After he left, though they still produced results, I never felt it was quite the same. They had players like Logie trying to fill the huge boots of Lloyd.

Like you say, it was their bowling that was their real strength. Even if the opposition was set 220 to score, it was often just too high a mountain to climb.

Like a cricketer of the time said (I don't remember who, maybe Gooch or Gower), "what was most disheartening was not just that you were trying to get out of the way of every ball coming at that pace at you, from both ends, but that after somehow surviving for 10 overs, if you happened to look at the scoreboard, you'd find the score had pretty much remained the same."

That's why I have a huge amount of respect for batsmen who got runs against that West Indies attack of Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Garner.
Like Mohinder Amarnath and Allan Lamb - two names that straightaway come to mind.
Kim Hughes got one fabulous hundred, as did Martin Crowe - but from what I remember, they were just part of the procession.
A score of 40 against this attack was considered courageous.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Paddles » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:07 pm

Crowe got a famous 188 in 84/85 the West Indies but went to confirming his elite batsman status in the world after smashing them at home in 86/87 helping Hadlee and Chatfield get a drawn series 1-1.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/story/978067.html
Elite honesty:
At the toss Faf said to Finch that you lads can bat - Finch replied "no, no we can't-we really can't".

Finch then saw Travis Head and Darcy Short start put on sun screen and said "Getting a bit optimistic aren't you?"

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby raja » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:34 pm

Oh ok.
I remember that 188.
Don't remember other games though.
By then, matches were getting blurred in my head.

Good to know that Martin Crowe also did well against the Windies.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:07 pm

Another mention for my awesome draft pick Ewan Chatfield!

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Misty » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:31 pm

raja wrote:Oh ok.
I remember that 188.
Don't remember other games though.
By then, matches were getting blurred in my head.

Good to know that Martin Crowe also did well against the Windies.

D.Amiss 188,183,179
All those vs India and Pakistan.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:03 am

Not relevant?

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Mick180461 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:44 am

raja wrote:And you are right about the West Indies.

They were a true powerhouse under Clive Lloyd. After he left, though they still produced results, I never felt it was quite the same. They had players like Logie trying to fill the huge boots of Lloyd.

Like you say, it was their bowling that was their real strength. Even if the opposition was set 220 to score, it was often just too high a mountain to climb.

Like a cricketer of the time said (I don't remember who, maybe Gooch or Gower), "what was most disheartening was not just that you were trying to get out of the way of every ball coming at that pace at you, from both ends, but that after somehow surviving for 10 overs, if you happened to look at the scoreboard, you'd find the score had pretty much remained the same."

That's why I have a huge amount of respect for batsmen who got runs against that West Indies attack of Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Garner.
Like Mohinder Amarnath and Allan Lamb - two names that straightaway come to mind.
Kim Hughes got one fabulous hundred, as did Martin Crowe - but from what I remember, they were just part of the procession.
A score of 40 against this attack was considered courageous.

The biggest problem for the Windies Cpatains has always been uniting the team under one Flag. Of course being a group of Nations with each with national interests this has never been easy and probably only 2 men have achieved it, Frank Worrell and Clive Lloyd. Richards inherited that unity from Lloyd so that helped his cause.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Paddles » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:40 am

Nice points Mick.

To further; Greenidge was not a great fan of Viv appointed captain even to begin with and questioned his nous. Having an endless stable of fast bowling made captaincy easier for Viv- but Lloyd post disapointing spinners had long established team selection structure to suit their strengths.

There are also ethnic divisions of Indian and African in the West Indes beyond that of nations that many are not aware of. I also think Sobers did well enough getting the team to gel often.
Elite honesty:
At the toss Faf said to Finch that you lads can bat - Finch replied "no, no we can't-we really can't".

Finch then saw Travis Head and Darcy Short start put on sun screen and said "Getting a bit optimistic aren't you?"

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Katto » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:51 am

Main problem with West Indies cricket is money. Players can make big money with T20 contracts, however where is the money in the domestic game...and lately there have been many pay disputes with the 'national' teams.
The landscape has changed and its left the West Indies behind. Its no single person's fault and nothing to do with having a great captain.
You can criticize Viv for not being a great captain and lucky to have talent at his disposal. ...well there's your problem in 2017...the quantity of talent is no longer there and much of this is about money.
Interest has waned a lot with the supporters too, particularly with Test cricket. That will never return.
West Indies cricket future is with T20 and if their success is measured on the T20 metric alone, then they're still a power in world cricket.

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Paddles » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:09 pm

Where did the fast bowlers go?

Image
Elite honesty:
At the toss Faf said to Finch that you lads can bat - Finch replied "no, no we can't-we really can't".

Finch then saw Travis Head and Darcy Short start put on sun screen and said "Getting a bit optimistic aren't you?"

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Boycs » Sun Jul 23, 2017 7:25 am

I was just thinking of teams who's only spinner was their batting all rounder, and wondered: did the West Indies field a front line spinner when they had sobers in the team? I looked at valentine and rhamdin but they appear to be more 1950-1962 whereas sobers was 1954 onwards. Once valentine departed did sobers do the spinning on his own?

I realise that sobers bowled seam too. And that he was a better bat that Moeen. Though you could argue that Moeen may develop into a spinner of similar figures one day.

But perhaps having an all rounder as your main spinner isn't unprecedented

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Re: Moeen Ali

Postby Paddles » Sun Jul 23, 2017 10:19 pm

Boycs wrote:I was just thinking of teams who's only spinner was their batting all rounder, and wondered: did the West Indies field a front line spinner when they had sobers in the team? I looked at valentine and rhamdin but they appear to be more 1950-1962 whereas sobers was 1954 onwards. Once valentine departed did sobers do the spinning on his own?

I realise that sobers bowled seam too. And that he was a better bat that Moeen. Though you could argue that Moeen may develop into a spinner of similar figures one day.

But perhaps having an all rounder as your main spinner isn't unprecedented


http://www.espncricinfo.com/westindies/content/player/51883.html

The West Indian aversion to spin began after Gibbs retired and Lloyd had had enough of being disapointed in the next lot of spin talent. In the late 80's Hooper was oft their only spinner (supported by Viv), Harper oft played on turning tracks tho.

Between the pitches conducive to spin (and a strong Indian ethnic population), WI cricket continues to produce a lot of spinners and has done so for many a decade despite the pace international onslaught of the late 70's to 90's.

Boycs, if Moeen averages 35plus with bat and under 40 with the ball while taking wickets and bowling a lot - he's doing a good job. If he can get the batting above the bowling average - that's excellent.
Elite honesty:
At the toss Faf said to Finch that you lads can bat - Finch replied "no, no we can't-we really can't".

Finch then saw Travis Head and Darcy Short start put on sun screen and said "Getting a bit optimistic aren't you?"