BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby MikeR68 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:45 am

Paddles, David Hookes once said "When they hand out the NSW Blues cap they give the Baggy Green as well". David Hookes didn't have T20 to fall back on....he would have made an excellent T20 player.

Stuart Law once said "When you're born outside NSW you have to perform better than NSW players to be noticed" Stuart Law didn't have T20 to fall back on. These were players in the system, they saw the inner workings. T20 is still in its development years but the number of tournaments world wide is incredible, countries that don't regularly have longer forms, have T20. I personally, as a purist, don't respect the game as much as I should, but I have to admit get on board it is the future. The money is being thrown at T20 development, 50 over games are becoming dead and buried.

You, Paddles, like myself, respect the test match format, we've grown up with it, but the future is T20. New Zealand are miles ahead of Australia and England with the respect they pay T20. Lynn would not be half as exciting without McCullum, maybe I exaggerate, but the two together you pay to see. In the T20 format would you pay to see Smith and Warner?

When looking at the current U19 system we are discussing, it is a 50 over format, the cross-roads if you will, which way do the players go? T20? tournaments all over the world... money to earn. Tests and a possible Baggy Green? 11 players which could remain intact for 10 years, definite prejudice to certain players that CA have ear-marked as the future. How else do you explain Ricky Ponting/Michael Clarke's 2010/11 Ashes which we lost (Philip Hughes, Shane Watson, Smith, Khawaja, Clarke himself, Haddin all were NSW players...it was a state batting line up and the penny never dropped that this was the problem they continually do it).

The current side NSW dominated with the possible futures being, Maddinson (useless), Patterson, Hughes, now we have Sangha, Waugh, Ryan Hadley, Param Uppal (they will be gifted a baggy green). Players from other states in Australia see this, there is no hiding from it, it is happening to them now, regardless of how well they perform they don't get selected, they reflect on the past and what past players say and see it is a common scenario. Maddinson got to play 3 tests for nothing but the experienced Callum Ferguson gets 1 test...put up or your out. The youth see this and if my son was good enough to play at this level I would also advise to play T20, there is a chance to earn a lucrative living, instead of trying to live out a dream and most probably that is all it will amount to.... a dream.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Katto » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:21 am

dude, add some paragraphs :shock:

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:48 am

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/ ... dependable. No more to be said on Joshua Hazlewood Mike. I would say with his 15 wkts in the first three tests here that their records would remain similar. I expect his haul in the final two matches to be even more profitable as he will get much confidence from this last test.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:32 am

MikeR68 wrote:Paddles, David Hookes once said "When they hand out the NSW Blues cap they give the Baggy Green as well". David Hookes didn't have T20 to fall back on....he would have made an excellent T20 player. Stuart Law once said "When you're born outside NSW you have to perform better than NSW players to be noticed" Stuart Law didn't have T20 to fall back on. These were players in the system, they saw the inner workings. T20 is still in its development years but the number of tournaments world wide is incredible, countries that don't regularly have longer forms, have T20. I personally, as a purist, don't respect the game as much as I should, but I have to admit get on board it is the future. The money is being thrown at T20 development, 50 over games are becoming dead and buried. You, Paddles, like myself, respect the test match format, we've grown up with it, but the future is T20. New Zealand are miles ahead of Australia and England with the respect they pay T20. Lynn would not be half as exciting without McCullum, maybe I exaggerate, but the two together you pay to see. In the T20 format would you pay to see Smith and Warner?
When looking at the current U19 system we are discussing, it is a 50 over format, the cross-roads if you will, which way do the players go? T20? tournaments all over the world... money to earn. Tests and a possible Baggy Green? 11 players which could remain intact for 10 years, definite prejudice to certain players that CA have ear-marked as the future. How else do you explain Ricky Ponting/Michael Clarke's 2010/11 Ashes which we lost (Philip Hughes, Shane Watson, Smith, Khawaja, Clarke himself, Haddin all were NSW players...it was a state batting line up and the penny never dropped that this was the problem they continually do it). The current side NSW dominated with the possible futures being, Maddinson (useless), Patterson, Hughes, now we have Sangha, Waugh, Ryan Hadley, Param Uppal (they will be gifted a baggy green). Players from other states in Australia see this, there is no hiding from it, it is happening to them now, regardless of how well they perform they don't get selected, they reflect on the past and what past players say and see it is a common scenario. Maddinson got to play 3 tests for nothing but the experienced Callum Ferguson gets 1 test...put up or your out. The youth see this and if my son was good enough to play at this level I would also advise to play T20, there is a chance to earn a lucrative living, instead of trying to live out a dream and most probably that is all it will amount to.... a dream.

Mike please, please break up your Posts a bit.
David Hookes whingeing about not getting enough opportunities because he wasn't from NSW! he got 23 Tests in which he scored the mediocre 1406 runs@34.46 with 1 century against a weak Sri Lanka team. He was the biggest Flat Track Bully ever, no Footwork all eye and quickly found out at Test level.
Stuart Law, who should have played less tests in his time? Blewett? who has got a record similar to Hookes has got nothing to whinge about he got 6 tests.

Baggers its actually JOSH Hazlewood not Joshua.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby bolero » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:50 am

I

have

spaced Mike's


posts


for easy

reading.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Boycs » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:28 pm

I have done the same for boleros complicated post :)

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:34 pm

MikeR68 wrote:Paddles, David Hookes once said "When they hand out the NSW Blues cap they give the Baggy Green as well". David Hookes didn't have T20 to fall back on....he would have made an excellent T20 player.

Stuart Law once said "When you're born outside NSW you have to perform better than NSW players to be noticed" Stuart Law didn't have T20 to fall back on. These were players in the system, they saw the inner workings. T20 is still in its development years but the number of tournaments world wide is incredible, countries that don't regularly have longer forms, have T20. I personally, as a purist, don't respect the game as much as I should, but I have to admit get on board it is the future. The money is being thrown at T20 development, 50 over games are becoming dead and buried.

You, Paddles, like myself, respect the test match format, we've grown up with it, but the future is T20. New Zealand are miles ahead of Australia and England with the respect they pay T20. Lynn would not be half as exciting without McCullum, maybe I exaggerate, but the two together you pay to see. In the T20 format would you pay to see Smith and Warner?

When looking at the current U19 system we are discussing, it is a 50 over format, the cross-roads if you will, which way do the players go? T20? tournaments all over the world... money to earn. Tests and a possible Baggy Green? 11 players which could remain intact for 10 years, definite prejudice to certain players that CA have ear-marked as the future. How else do you explain Ricky Ponting/Michael Clarke's 2010/11 Ashes which we lost (Philip Hughes, Shane Watson, Smith, Khawaja, Clarke himself, Haddin all were NSW players...it was a state batting line up and the penny never dropped that this was the problem they continually do it).

The current side NSW dominated with the possible futures being, Maddinson (useless), Patterson, Hughes, now we have Sangha, Waugh, Ryan Hadley, Param Uppal (they will be gifted a baggy green). Players from other states in Australia see this, there is no hiding from it, it is happening to them now, regardless of how well they perform they don't get selected, they reflect on the past and what past players say and see it is a common scenario. Maddinson got to play 3 tests for nothing but the experienced Callum Ferguson gets 1 test...put up or your out. The youth see this and if my son was good enough to play at this level I would also advise to play T20, there is a chance to earn a lucrative living, instead of trying to live out a dream and most probably that is all it will amount to.... a dream.



Warner yes. Smith no.

Warner is one of the best t20 batsmen ever. He's an IPL superstar.

But Smith is one of the best ever test batsmen ever so he won't sweat his own t20 form so far.

I get your anti-NSW sentiment - but Finch's t20 vs CA contracts was a poor choice of example. I am a member on a Aussie cricket based rugby league forum - I see the NSW bias daily. And even many of them would drop (Starc for this matter or) Cummins for Pattinson when fit :lmao:

And given the choice of Lynn or Bmac on a road- Lynn any day. That boy hits a rocket. I may love NZC more than anyone else on this forum - but Lynn has nore talent in his pinky than Bmac has on his hands. But Lynn won't get 101 tests if any. Tbh - I think its nigh bollocks when Kiwis pick Bmac the batsman as a automatic and unquestioned keeper in a NZATG side. Pick him for sure - but his dbls as a bat and his tripple are not part of the heavily weighted criteria in my view. I feel better picking Flower, Sanga or ABDV in my World ATG side (Gilly aint all that neither).
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Boycs » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:17 pm

cricket-based rugby league?

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:35 pm

Boycs wrote:cricket-based rugby league?


Its a NSW QLD Yorkshire (handful of NZ'ers) thing.

Its a rugby league forum with a cricket section - but far more users than here.
Last edited by Paddles on Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby raja » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:48 pm

Test cricket is easily my favourite format too.
I almost always make an effort to follow Test cricket, even if it is Zimbabwe playing. I MIGHT make an effort to follow ODIs, depending on who is playing. I almost never make an effort to follow T20Is, even if it is BCCI playing.

This isn't to say I don't watch T20s at all. I do watch IPL games - if I strip them of the hubris around them (and the pathetic commentary), I find them to be intense - and it is this intensity I like. Every IPL player knows millions are watching him. Many an unknown Indian player has made it big via the IPL. A few names that come to mind - Ravichandran Ashwin, Jaspreet Bumrah, Manish Pandey, Hardik Pandya...They might have made it big even otherwise, but they shot into fame thanks to the IPL.

I don't know enough about the BBL (I don't even know how many teams are part of the league), but if I did, I'd probably enjoy watching a few games too. Watching any intense competition is fun - the fun comes from the intensity, in my opinion.

This probably explains why I don't care much for T20Is. Except if it's the T20 World Cup, is there really an intensity in a BCCI-Australia T20 game? Does anyone really remember any T20I heroics outside the T20 World Cup? League heroics, yes (IPL or BBL or any other), but T20I heroics? Maybe some do - I most certainly don't.

But I can remember Test match heroics - remember Robert Croft denying South Africa in 1998? I go back to David O'Sullivan denying India in 1975-76, Sew Shivnarine and Derek Parry denying India in 1978-79 and so on. I can't remember a single T20I game, outside T20 World Cups.

Having said all this (and this might be only me!), and coming back to the point about league cricket, the point isn't so much about baggy green VERSUS league cricket. It shouldn't be one OR the other. As long as schedules don't clash and a player is fit, why shouldn't a player aspire to play both? The baggy green has its special place in a cricketer's dreams, but it might not be enough to secure his long-term future. It's different for a top-notch, recognised, cricketer but for many it's a struggle to not just get a contract, but to retain it. After all, there are very limited spots.

Lucrative leagues, on the other hand, have more openings and can pay well. In a few years, even if you're not blazing the scene, you can make a decent amount to feel secure.

I'm all for players playing the leagues. They are professionals - and the public wants to see them play.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby MikeR68 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:15 pm

baggygreenmania wrote:http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/18464298/josh-hazlewood-australia-mr-dependable. No more to be said on Joshua Hazlewood Mike. I would say with his 15 wkts in the first three tests here that their records would remain similar. I expect his haul in the final two matches to be even more profitable as he will get much confidence from this last test.


Nice article Baggers, now let me up date it

Glenn McGrath next 8 tests 43 wickets @22
Josh Hazlewood next 8 tests 24 wickets @29 that's including his good performance in the WACA test of 8/140, prior to that... well you do the maths. (I'll do it for you Baggers 16 wickets @ 34, which is the same performance that saw Starc in and out of the side early in his career)

I'll wait till the end of this series, hopefully without the Grand Canyon running down the center of the pitch and the damp spots on the pitch that got Bairstow, before I jump over to the Josh Hazlewood band-wagon, if you've left me any room Baggers. But it was a good accurate bowling performance by Hazlewood and maybe he has turned the corner, because 16 wickets @34 is not great. But with 34 tests now under his belt he can no longer hide behind the excuse "He's still learning". Amazing when he returns back to the 135 km line and length deliveries he is more fruitful. Just like a good No 3 bowler should be. I'll also be interested in the South Africa series, which is a good sign of how a bowler is going as their wickets should be perfect for Josh Hazlewood's bowling style, England have been successful there.

Sorry guys about the spacing, was distracted by gardening chores.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:35 pm

Mike what do you want out of Hazlewood?, averages a superb 25 runs per wkt, a wkt every 54 balls, a RPO of 2.79 and averages 3.91 wkts per match. You are letting your hatred of everything south of the Tweed effect common sense. Hazlewood is a high quality Bowler and you must be the only one who doesn't think so.
Hazlewood started this series short of a gallop due to returning from injury and it showed at the Gabba but as the Series has gone on he has got better.
Is he as good as McGrath, no but neither were 95% of the Pace Bowlers who have played Test Cricket.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:36 pm

delete, double posted

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:01 am

Is he as good as McGrath, no but neither were 95% of the Pace Bowlers who have played Test Cricket. Josh is perhaps lagging behind the great man at the moment but to dismiss him now is premature. Lets have a look and compare their records after 50 tests. It he is well behind then Mike I will be on your Hazlewood bandwagon. Bear in mind both of you. McGrath is on the record as saying if an Australian beats my record it will be Hazlewood.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:22 am

:rj: someone please tell me what this icon means?

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:33 am

baggygreenmania wrote::rj: someone please tell me what this icon means?

Preaching ones own opinions I think Baggers.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby MikeR68 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:29 am

Mick180461 wrote:Mike what do you want out of Hazlewood?, averages a superb 25 runs per wkt, a wkt every 54 balls, a RPO of 2.79 and averages 3.91 wkts per match. You are letting your hatred of everything south of the Tweed effect common sense. Hazlewood is a high quality Bowler and you must be the only one who doesn't think so.
Hazlewood started this series short of a gallop due to returning from injury and it showed at the Gabba but as the Series has gone on he has got better.
Is he as good as McGrath, no but neither were 95% of the Pace Bowlers who have played Test Cricket.


Mick just follow my line of reasoning. I'll use G McGrath and M Johnson and why I think M Johnson was an equal to G McGrath. Remembering the amount of ridicule Johnson received throughout his career and McGrath was deemed an almighty legend, and you recently admitted you didn't rate Johnson especially compared to Hazlewood and you would be laughing at me for suggesting he was an equal to McGrath.

Both bowlers took 2.2 wickets per innings. They both achieved milestones at the similar rates eg fastest to 250 wickets 55 tests for McGrath and 57 for Johnson, Similar strike rates 51.1 for Johnson, 51.9 for McGrath. They were similar bowlers in many ways except one which is averages McGrath was 21.64 and Johnson was 28.4 so lets say a 7 run difference per wicket or 15 runs per innings based on the 2.2 wickets per innings.

Now what did McGrath bring in batting, 7.36 average. What did Johnson bring? 22.2...there's your 15 run difference. So any discrepancy Mitch Johnson had was well and truly made up for by his batting, thus why I think Johnson was an equal to McGrath as an overall cricketer, and was unfairly judged throughout his career.

But it is also a reason why I deem Hazlewood lower than a lot of others. As an overall cricketer Josh currently strikes at approx 2 wickets per innings at an average of 25.5, and his batting is 12.

So if I see a bowler like James Pattinson (yes I know he is injured) who averages 2.3 wickets per innings (a lot higher than Hazlewood) at an average of 26 only 1 run per innings difference but brings a batting average of 27, I choose Pattinson.

If I see a bowler like M Starc with a similar strike rate to Hazlewood and a bowling average of 27.5 only a 4 run difference per innings but a batting average of 23, I choose Starc. Jackson Bird 4 run per innings difference but 7 run difference in batting. That's why I don't rate Bird as highly. Pat Cummins 3 run per innings difference in bowling but has a batting average of 27.5, I rate Cummins better.....but currently if someone is to be dropped, if Pattinson was fit, Cummins would be the one, wouldn't he? Or would you suggest that Pattinson with a superior strike rate to all the current bowlers, and brings so much more to the side should be sitting on the sidelines?

The problem I see with Josh is that his performance could be comparative to a bowler averaging 30.5 and averaging 22 with the bat. And that is how I rate him, nothing to do with where he was born, make sense.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:08 am

Mike - there's a further variable ignoring eras:

I bet McGrath batted in far less innings than he bowled in. For any winning team - this will be true. For Hadlee - he is closer to even but many of his 2nd innings bowlings were small totals easily chased.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby MikeR68 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:30 am

For sure Paddles, half the time it would be pointless sending him out and risk a broken finger

But in saying all that I am a lot more forgiving to quality strike bowlers eg Craig McDermott who took 2.35 wickets per innings, compared to Josh who hovers around the 2 wickets per innings (as I constantly say you need 5 bowlers if that is deemed acceptable). But it is just how I personally view bowlers, it has nothing to do with bias as suggested. Especially when others are happy to ridicule certain players but when it is a pet favourite the shoe is on the other foot.

As an example, I don't know if you are aware of the constant slamming of Shane Watson when he was playing test cricket, I was lenient of him for the following reasons and I'll compare again if it makes sense.

Shane Watson bowled 5500 balls in test cricket and took 75 wickets @33.
Josh Hazlewood 7281 balls for 133 wickets.
Watson bowled 75% of the deliveries of Hazlewood and 75% of Hazlewood's wickets is 99 wickets. OK that is a discrepancy, but Watson was the No 5 bowler in a side, and he averaged 35 with the bat and he opened, batted No3, he had it hard. Was he deserving of the constant ridicule, whilst Hazlewood is an apparent genius? I personally don't think so.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:30 am

MikeR68 wrote:For sure Paddles, half the time it would be pointless sending him out and risk a broken finger

But in saying all that I am a lot more forgiving to quality strike bowlers eg Craig McDermott who took 2.35 wickets per innings, compared to Josh who hovers around the 2 wickets per innings (as I constantly say you need 5 bowlers if that is deemed acceptable). But it is just how I personally view bowlers, it has nothing to do with bias as suggested. Especially when others are happy to ridicule certain players but when it is a pet favourite the shoe is on the other foot.

As an example, I don't know if you are aware of the constant slamming of Shane Watson when he was playing test cricket, I was lenient of him for the following reasons and I'll compare again if it makes sense.

Shane Watson bowled 5500 balls in test cricket and took 75 wickets @33.
Josh Hazlewood 7281 balls for 133 wickets.
Watson bowled 75% of the deliveries of Hazlewood and 75% of Hazlewood's wickets is 99 wickets. OK that is a discrepancy, but Watson was the No 5 bowler in a side, and he averaged 35 with the bat and he opened, batted No3, he had it hard. Was he deserving of the constant ridicule, whilst Hazlewood is an apparent genius? I personally don't think so.


Mike - you're thinking and being analytical.

I like it.

But I think the question for Watson ought to be more did Straya need an all rounder. Besides his lbw reviews, Watto was a better all-rounder than many Strayan fans gave him credit for. But Watto at times was a reluctant bowler -he wanted to be a test bat. I think he's a genuine limited overs legend to boot. Srsly an ATG World XI contender. Again - he gets little love and global ridicule. Excellent odi bowler. And a ton of big fast runs. Much better cricketer than oft credited for.

But I think you're harsh in your player comparisons to Hazlewood. I don't think Baggers is claiming that Haze has replaced McGrath in the Aus ATG side. As far as bowlers in Aus go currently, Haze is doing well.

I agree with you on Pattinson being ace. If Haze is a 'mini McGrath' then Patto is a 'mini-Steyn'. They bowled very very well together in a test in NZ - where Bird downhill skiid the wickets after their far more impressive efforts.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:19 am

MikeR68 wrote:
Mick180461 wrote:Mike what do you want out of Hazlewood?, averages a superb 25 runs per wkt, a wkt every 54 balls, a RPO of 2.79 and averages 3.91 wkts per match. You are letting your hatred of everything south of the Tweed effect common sense. Hazlewood is a high quality Bowler and you must be the only one who doesn't think so.
Hazlewood started this series short of a gallop due to returning from injury and it showed at the Gabba but as the Series has gone on he has got better.
Is he as good as McGrath, no but neither were 95% of the Pace Bowlers who have played Test Cricket.


Mick just follow my line of reasoning. I'll use G McGrath and M Johnson and why I think M Johnson was an equal to G McGrath. Remembering the amount of ridicule Johnson received throughout his career and McGrath was deemed an almighty legend, and you recently admitted you didn't rate Johnson especially compared to Hazlewood and you would be laughing at me for suggesting he was an equal to McGrath.

Both bowlers took 2.2 wickets per innings. They both achieved milestones at the similar rates eg fastest to 250 wickets 55 tests for McGrath and 57 for Johnson, Similar strike rates 51.1 for Johnson, 51.9 for McGrath. They were similar bowlers in many ways except one which is averages McGrath was 21.64 and Johnson was 28.4 so lets say a 7 run difference per wicket or 15 runs per innings based on the 2.2 wickets per innings.

Now what did McGrath bring in batting, 7.36 average. What did Johnson bring? 22.2...there's your 15 run difference. So any discrepancy Mitch Johnson had was well and truly made up for by his batting, thus why I think Johnson was an equal to McGrath as an overall cricketer, and was unfairly judged throughout his career.

But it is also a reason why I deem Hazlewood lower than a lot of others. As an overall cricketer Josh currently strikes at approx 2 wickets per innings at an average of 25.5, and his batting is 12.

So if I see a bowler like James Pattinson (yes I know he is injured) who averages 2.3 wickets per innings (a lot higher than Hazlewood) at an average of 26 only 1 run per innings difference but brings a batting average of 27, I choose Pattinson.

If I see a bowler like M Starc with a similar strike rate to Hazlewood and a bowling average of 27.5 only a 4 run difference per innings but a batting average of 23, I choose Starc. Jackson Bird 4 run per innings difference but 7 run difference in batting. That's why I don't rate Bird as highly. Pat Cummins 3 run per innings difference in bowling but has a batting average of 27.5, I rate Cummins better.....but currently if someone is to be dropped, if Pattinson was fit, Cummins would be the one, wouldn't he? Or would you suggest that Pattinson with a superior strike rate to all the current bowlers, and brings so much more to the side should be sitting on the sidelines?

The problem I see with Josh is that his performance could be comparative to a bowler averaging 30.5 and averaging 22 with the bat. And that is how I rate him, nothing to do with where he was born, make sense.

I am only talking about Bowling, because I believe that you pick the 4 best bowlers in your side if none of them can bat so be it, its not their job to score the runs. If you want to talk about them as Cricketers than yes Johnson is definitely the better Cricketer. All I actually said was that Hazlewood had a better record as a Bowler.

Cummins 8 Tests 32 wkts
Bird 8 Tests 34 wkts
Hazlewood 33 Tests 133 wkts
Pattinson 17 tests 70 wkts
Starc 39 tests 167 wkts
It is totally unfair on all 5 Bowlers to compare records, I have said this numerous times you cant compare short of at least 15-20 tests minimum, how many Tests have Pattinson & Bird played in the Subcontinent. Until you have played at least 20 tests you wont have played in all conditions.
Compare Starc & Hazlewoods Bowling, Starc goes at 3.4 runs an over, Hazlewood 2.89, who's the better bowler. Answer : both, they compliment each other superbly, Hazlewoods accuracy and ability to maintain the pressure allow Starc to go all out at the other end. They are developing into a superb opening Pace Attack, throw Cummins in behind them and hopefully Pattinson in the future you have a Phenomenal attack.

Pattinson consistently breaking down with back problems at 27 is a major concern and there is no point talking about him until he can prove he is over these problems. One of the major things I look at when comparing Bowlers is the ability to stay on the park, Hazlewood & Starc have now proved they can to an acceptable degree, Cummins needs to stay fit until the end of the Saffer tour to prove he can stay fit.
Fully fit, of these four I would go Pattinson without hesitation as the best of them and he is also in the same class as Cummins, Starc & Johnson as a Batsman.
The great strength of these 4 quicks is they all offer something different and the English batsman have rarely been able to settle against them. By a fair way the most skilful Pace Bowler I have seen this Summer is Jimmy Anderson but he is trying to do it alone.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:50 am

If bowlers weren't expected to bat - innings would finish at 6 wickets down. Mike's not comparing cricketers - the bowling matters, he's not suggesting that Boon, Jones, Hayden and Langer bat 8, 9, 10 and 11 as better cricketers than Hazlewood. Mike is bringing in their all round value - I think his current metric overstates the batting, but I also think his sentiment is valid if not quantified well. If the 80s Windies met a 80s World team with an attack of Rice, Khan, Hadlee and Dev/Botham - I'm backing the World team to win even without Viv Richards.

For me, as soon as Scott Kuggs bowling rivals Southee's - he ought to be in NZ team ahead of him with vastly superior batting. So I get where he is comming from - but he's currently overstating the batting value of bowlers so far imo. But the bowlers actually have to be able to bowl well. There's no point to 4 or 5 allrounders that struggle to bowl a side out.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:32 am

When putting together an attack the 1st consideration must always be to take 20 wkts, if you can get handy runs out of your tail all the better, same as a Batsman who can bowl. If you are relying on your 8,9,10 to score runs than you are going to struggle to win Tests, same as if you are relying on your batsman to take wkts.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:10 am

Mick180461 wrote:When putting together an attack the 1st consideration must always be to take 20 wkts, if you can get handy runs out of your tail all the better, same as a Batsman who can bowl. If you are relying on your 8,9,10 to score runs than you are going to struggle to win Tests, same as if you are relying on your batsman to take wkts.


I think an attack of Khan, Rice, Hadlee and Botham or Dev would score a lot of runs and take a lot of wickets.

Yes - you want to be able to take 20 wickets to win, but you want runs on the board too to not lose and to facilitate a win. If you're srsly not relying on bowlers batting, just declare at 6 wickets down everytime.

Why do you think bowlers, McGrath included, work/ed so much on their batting?
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:25 am

Paddles wrote:
Mick180461 wrote:When putting together an attack the 1st consideration must always be to take 20 wkts, if you can get handy runs out of your tail all the better, same as a Batsman who can bowl. If you are relying on your 8,9,10 to score runs than you are going to struggle to win Tests, same as if you are relying on your batsman to take wkts.


I think an attack of Khan, Rice, Hadlee and Botham or Dev would score a lot of runs and take a lot of wickets.

Yes - you want to be able to take 20 wickets to win, but you want runs on the board too to not lose and to facilitate a win. If you're srsly not relying on bowlers batting, just declare at 6 wickets down everytime.

Why do you think bowlers, McGrath included, work/ed so much on their batting?

Every single one of those would have been regarded as all time greats even if they were complete Bunnies, they were first and foremost great Bowlers. Yes runs scored by the Tail can be very useful and I'm not saying they are not, Pat Cummins has 3 times reached 40 in this series, if he had not we may be staring down a different scoreline. But if he had not I would not be blaming him, I and most people would be putting the blame where it belongs, on the top 6. It is their job to score the runs and continual failure to score enough runs should always lye with the top 6.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:29 am

Mick180461 wrote:
Paddles wrote:
I think an attack of Khan, Rice, Hadlee and Botham or Dev would score a lot of runs and take a lot of wickets.

Yes - you want to be able to take 20 wickets to win, but you want runs on the board too to not lose and to facilitate a win. If you're srsly not relying on bowlers batting, just declare at 6 wickets down everytime.

Why do you think bowlers, McGrath included, work/ed so much on their batting?

Every single one of those would have been regarded as all time greats even if they were complete Bunnies, they were first and foremost great Bowlers. Yes runs scored by the Tail can be very useful and I'm not saying they are not, Pat Cummins has 3 times reached 40 in this series, if he had not we may be staring down a different scoreline. But if he had not I would not be blaming him, I and most people would be putting the blame where it belongs, on the top 6. It is their job to score the runs and continual failure to score enough runs should always lye with the top 6.


I know your sentiment. It is one that was shared by the great Don Bradman himself - but even he had Miller in 48. But without a statistical anomaly like Don himself batting which no doubt imo coloured the Don's view that was passed down for generations - Mike has a valid point. He is, imo, overstating its effect which further fuels the debate, but it is valid. Your Cummins batting innings appreciation for me confirms that you acknowledge this.

The Don had Sobers at 5 and a keeper who was a lousy bat. I disagree with that no end.

Ultimately there are 2 propositions which Mike either knows or is on the path to realise - pick the best players for a role (Don's view), or like Sangakarra's view: pick the best combined team. I subscribe to the 2nd view, not the first like the Don. I believe the Don's freakish batting ability and team success helped mould his opinion, whereas Sanga played in weak and strong teams and had to guage keeping and his own run scoring ability.

Where most fans agree is that there ought to be a minimal competency for the main essential role that caused selection.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:40 am

Bowlers today are generally a lot better Batsman anyway, the genuine no11 Rabbit is now rare. And most of the time through history one of the bowlers was a useful Bat anyway and at least one of the Bats could bowl usefully. This issue only tends to pop up when a side is losing and the Selectors pick a Bowling All-rounder to lengthen the batting or a Batting All-Rounder to back up the Bowlers.
I am a firm believer that the player bought in must be of Test class in at least one discipline, I've seen to many Bits & Pieces brought in and failed in both disciplines.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:26 pm

Mick180461 wrote:Bowlers today are generally a lot better Batsman anyway, the genuine no11 Rabbit is now rare. And most of the time through history one of the bowlers was a useful Bat anyway and at least one of the Bats could bowl usefully. This issue only tends to pop up when a side is losing and the Selectors pick a Bowling All-rounder to lengthen the batting or a Batting All-Rounder to back up the Bowlers.
I am a firm believer that the player bought in must be of Test class in at least one discipline, I've seen to many Bits & Pieces brought in and failed in both disciplines.



You're onto it now. You seem to get it and this was a good post.

Only point of note was the great winning teams Aus and WI teams at teams looking for an all rounder in Watson and Hooper respectively but the merits of this is a different debate altogether. But even the best look to improve to stay the best but its more difficult to change a winning formula - if even stronger. Its debatable if Watson was - I doubt it as his batting was too far below the next best alternative until at least '07 (if not later). Plus Hooper had more batting talent than Lara as said by Lara - he just wasted it.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:47 pm

Watching Inside Cricket; all this Aus media talk of Australia having the best attack in the world - beat Safrica first before making this claim absolutely. Srsly. The Saffirs bowled Aussie out in Aussie last year! With Steyn injured!

They lost Abbott;

They still have Morkel, Steyn, Rabada, Philander, Maharaj, Morris, Parnell, et al.

And pay attention to what Pakistan is developing in the last 6 months - yes I know SL beat them in UAE - but Amir and Shah now have Hassan Ali, Mohammad Abbas and friends.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby MikeR68 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:37 pm

Paddles wrote:If bowlers weren't expected to bat - innings would finish at 6 wickets down. Mike's not comparing cricketers - the bowling matters, he's not suggesting that Boon, Jones, Hayden and Langer bat 8, 9, 10 and 11 as better cricketers than Hazlewood. Mike is bringing in their all round value - I think his current metric overstates the batting, but I also think his sentiment is valid if not quantified well. If the 80s Windies met a 80s World team with an attack of Rice, Khan, Hadlee and Dev/Botham - I'm backing the World team to win even without Viv Richards.

For me, as soon as Scott Kuggs bowling rivals Southee's - he ought to be in NZ team ahead of him with vastly superior batting. So I get where he is comming from - but he's currently overstating the batting value of bowlers so far imo. But the bowlers actually have to be able to bowl well. There's no point to 4 or 5 allrounders that struggle to bowl a side out.


I like yourself Paddles do not want to see bits and pieces players. My point is that in all we are talking about similar bowlers, in Hazlewood, Starc etc, My point is enforced by you bringing up Kapil Dev. Dev doesn't meet the 2+ wickets per innings that I suggested but lets be honest he bowled half his career on a pace bowlers hell on earth. Dry slow wickets under 40 degree heat. But he also came out and batted for a period of time averaging 30 in those same oppressive conditions, then came out again and bowled, how much is taken out of a player doing that? Can they still give 100% every time?

When looking at players like McGrath and Hazlewood, they have one job and one job only....too bowl and take wickets. Whilst others like Johnson, Starc, Cummins who actually have ability with the bat go out and run up and down a pitch, concentrating on deliveries, standing out in the sun, having their energy sapped, you can understand a slight fall off in bowling energy. Meanwhile the McGraths and Hazlewoods, rest up in the air conditioning preparing for their one job to do. McGrath did it 2.3 wickets per innings av 21.64. Hazlewood 2 wickets per innings at 25.5 (just a fraction better than other bowlers currently he bowls with)...I just don't think he is performing as well as he could be.

You also mentioned Dale Steyn, not great with the bat, but didn't he do his one job well, 156 innings for 417 wickets @22.3...WOW that's 2.7 wickets per innings, that's doing your job. That's a big contrast to Josh Hazlewood's performance so far and something that Josh should be trying to emulate, he has nothing else to do, it's not like he's standing in the slips like Alderman, and wasn't Steyn a slip fieldsman, I'm not 100% sure on that. On average Josh bowls 35 overs per test, I'll be generous and say that's 3 hours work out of 30 hours play not including overtime.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Mick180461 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:41 pm

Paddles wrote:
Mick180461 wrote:.



You're onto it now. You seem to get it and this was a good pos.

God you are full of it, I never at any stage said runs scored by the tail aren't important, all I said was IT IS NOT THE BOWLERS JOB TO SCORE THE RUNS and when a team is not scoring enough runs the fault should always lie with the top 6 and they should always pick the 4 best bowlers. Any runs scored by the Tail should be regarded as a bonus only.
A perfect example of this was last season when the Selectors picked Joe Mennie over a proven Test Bowler in Jackson Bird because he is a better Batsman. Result Australia thrashed and the Chairman of Selectors stepping down.
The only time batting should come into is when you have 2 bowlers of equal ability and the Selectors cant separate them.
It must be a Kiwi thing to pick bowlers on Batting ability and that's how Chris Harris got 23 Tests or Dipak Patel 37 Tests. Going with Batting ability over Bowling ability rarely works.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:52 pm

Mick180461 wrote:
Paddles wrote:

You're onto it now. You seem to get it and this was a good pos.

God you are full of it, I never at any stage said runs scored by the tail aren't important, all I said was IT IS NOT THE BOWLERS JOB TO SCORE THE RUNS and when a team is not scoring enough runs the fault should always lie with the top 6 and they should always pick the 4 best bowlers. Any runs scored by the Tail should be regarded as a bonus only.
A perfect example of this was last season when the Selectors picked Joe Mennie over a proven Test Bowler in Jackson Bird because he is a better Batsman. Result Australia thrashed and the Chairman of Selectors stepping down.
The only time batting should come into is when you have 2 bowlers of equal ability and the Selectors cant separate them.
It must be a Kiwi thing to pick bowlers on Batting ability and that's how Chris Harris got 23 Tests.


You're rather rude.

You may subscribe to the 'Don view' all you like. I'm not trying to persuade you to change your mind. But there are 2 distinct philosophies, and I prefer the best team to best individual role approach, whether sometimes selectors get an individual selection well or poorly.

As for any possible 'Kiwi thing' - it prolly has more to do with Hadlee, Cairns and Vettorri - leading NZ wicket takers- making many important runs, and Chris Martin not. But, its not typically a 'Kiwi thing' in NZ neither as the same debate is alive and well here.

And by the way, extreme examples of best team vs the Don view include Australia previously played Michael Bevan in tests as a bowler to subsidise Mark Taylor's poor batting form. And England played Brearley as a specialist captain (not sure I agree with this tho as I think it weakens a team more). Its a global debate throughout eras and still currently applies to captains, batsmen (ties into the ar or 6 batsmen debate), keepers and bowlers.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:28 am

I read and enjoyed this jousting between you Mick and Paddles. Until we digressed to bowlers batting. So fellars what is the upshot of all this.. do you rate Hazlewood. Should he be part of Australia's attack?

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:42 am

Compare Starc & Hazlewoods Bowling, Starc goes at 3.4 runs an over, Hazlewood 2.89, who's the better bowler. Answer : both, they compliment each other superbly, Hazlewoods accuracy and ability to maintain the pressure allow Starc to go all out at the other end. They are developing into a superb opening Pace Attack, throw Cummins in behind them and hopefully Pattinson in the future you have a Phenomenal attack.
With you 100% on this Mick. Someone like McGrath, Hazlewood, Harris, Bird or even Siddle make life easier for the Starcs/Pattinsons in our attack. The pressure built by constant accuracy can bring about a rash shot against someone like a Starc/ Pattinson who are quicker usually than the seamer but as they mix their deliveries can provide more scoring chances. I believe this is where the value Hazlewood brings to our attack is undestimated by Mike. His ability to hit a spot, that channel just outside off stump repeatedly..put the batsman in two minds whether to play or not creates wickets for the more wayward bowling partner..
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby raja » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:49 am

Am reminded of an interview I read of Gilly many years ago, when he was still fairly new - and making loads of runs.
I think he had a 50-odd average at the time.

He was asked whether he worked hard on his batting.

His answer was something along the lines of:
I work hard on my wicketkeeping, because that is why I am in the side. It's always nice to get runs of course but I want to be as good as I can be, with keeper gloves on.

Made a lot of sense to me.

Of course, in Gilly's case, he had the luxury of a quality top-6 batting line-up. Something a Vettori never had. So in addition to working on his bowling, Vettori had to ensure he could bat too. More often than not, he was bailing out his side. As long as his bowling didn't suffer as a result, no problem.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:56 am

Gilly was good enuff to bat #6 in my view. May not have had the most solid of techniques.. but his hand/eye co ordination, quick feet and fast hand speed thru the shot made up for that. g
Gilly was very capable of taking a game away from you before you realised it. His keeping was as good as anyone to have worn the gloves for Australia. Betting his career record would bear that out.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:12 am

raja wrote:Am reminded of an interview I read of Gilly many years ago, when he was still fairly new - and making loads of runs.
I think he had a 50-odd average at the time.

He was asked whether he worked hard on his batting.

His answer was something along the lines of:
I work hard on my wicketkeeping, because that is why I am in the side. It's always nice to get runs of course but I want to be as good as I can be, with keeper gloves on.

Made a lot of sense to me.

Of course, in Gilly's case, he had the luxury of a quality top-6 batting line-up. Something a Vettori never had. So in addition to working on his bowling, Vettori had to ensure he could bat too. More often than not, he was bailing out his side. As long as his bowling didn't suffer as a result, no problem.


Until Taylor hit his straps, post Flemming, Vettorri was NZ's best bat. That's an embarrassment for NZC, as when Bond was not BCCI ICC banned - he was also arguably NZ's best bowler too (Oram bowled better than ppl remember). Also cos he scored apprx 75% of his runs behind square on the off side.

But suddenly we are in this Ali, Jadeja, Ashwin, Al Hasan era - where the test spinners bar Lyon are expected to make runs, and Santner fails and Lyon surprises and beats hot spot with the bat to win Adelaide tests.

Are the times changing? No. Whether you're Aubrey Faulkner or Murali - the game is the same, but post Gilly and Stewart ruining Healy and Russell- some of us know that the selectors must be more ruthless as the demands on the players progresses and evolves. But the conservatives like the good ol' days.

But the English keeper in Bodyline was Ames - the first batting keeper. He could take a catch - no doubt. But he batted very very well.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:22 am

baggygreenmania wrote:Compare Starc & Hazlewoods Bowling, Starc goes at 3.4 runs an over, Hazlewood 2.89, who's the better bowler. Answer : both, they compliment each other superbly, Hazlewoods accuracy and ability to maintain the pressure allow Starc to go all out at the other end. They are developing into a superb opening Pace Attack, throw Cummins in behind them and hopefully Pattinson in the future you have a Phenomenal attack.
With you 100% on this Mick. Someone like McGrath, Hazlewood, Harris, Bird or even Siddle make life easier for the Starcs/Pattinsons in our attack. The pressure built by constant accuracy can bring about a rash shot against someone like a Starc/ Pattinson who are quicker usually than the seamer but as they mix their deliveries can provide more scoring chances. I believe this is where the value Hazlewood brings to our attack is undestimated by Mike. His ability to hit a spot, that channel just outside off stump repeatedly..put the batsman in two minds whether to play or not creates wickets for the more wayward bowling partner..


I rate Haze. You know this.

I rate Pattinson. You know this.

I rate Lyon. You know this.

I rate Starc far more in limited overs than tests. You know this.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:23 am

baggygreenmania wrote:Gilly was good enuff to bat #6 in my view. May not have had the most solid of techniques.. but his hand/eye co ordination, quick feet and fast hand speed thru the shot made up for that. g
Gilly was very capable of taking a game away from you before you realised it. His keeping was as good as anyone to have worn the gloves for Australia. Betting his career record would bear that out.


Gilly started strong. Real strong. Finished weak. Flintoff 2005 worked him out. After that it was rinse and repeat - quick Perth century 06/07 anamoly nowithstanding.

Noone before you suggests he was a better keeper than Healy - but all agree a better bat.

Gilly knew he had to wicket keep in his spot.

That's different from being a better keeper than Healy to take his spot.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby MikeR68 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:34 am

baggygreenmania wrote:Compare Starc & Hazlewoods Bowling, Starc goes at 3.4 runs an over, Hazlewood 2.89, who's the better bowler. Answer : both, they compliment each other superbly, Hazlewoods accuracy and ability to maintain the pressure allow Starc to go all out at the other end. They are developing into a superb opening Pace Attack, throw Cummins in behind them and hopefully Pattinson in the future you have a Phenomenal attack.
With you 100% on this Mick. Someone like McGrath, Hazlewood, Harris, Bird or even Siddle make life easier for the Starcs/Pattinsons in our attack. The pressure built by constant accuracy can bring about a rash shot against someone like a Starc/ Pattinson who are quicker usually than the seamer but as they mix their deliveries can provide more scoring chances. I believe this is where the value Hazlewood brings to our attack is undestimated by Mike. His ability to hit a spot, that channel just outside off stump repeatedly..put the batsman in two minds whether to play or not creates wickets for the more wayward bowling partner..


Lets just agree to disagree Baggers, because what you're suggesting implies, Hadlee, Lillee, McGrath, Harris and many other line and length bowlers should never have taken as many wickets as they did, it should have been the bowler at the other end.

But I'll do you a deal, considering McDermott took his 150th wicket in his 61st innings, McGrath in his 65th innings, Johnson in his 65th innings but Starc took 70 innings, I'll give Hazlewood till the end of the 2nd test South Africa, that's 38 tests or 72 innings to take his and if he does that, I'll say it is justification for his continued selection even though I feel it is a below average performance, even though he took longer than many before him and considering Starc who had a poor start to his career and Josh had a brilliant start to his, first 50 wickets in 23 innings. But if he doesn't do it you have to admit that NSW players do not have to perform as well as others to be continually selected. And we'll leave it at that as neither of us will change their opinion. 72 innings for 150 wickets C'mon you have to admit that is fair, 11 innings longer than McDermott. And I haven't even bought out my big gun Swerv'n Merv Hughes, belly and all.

But what about the T20, not much to report from the first game apart from Watson shows more class than many upcomers even pushing 37. But what about the performance of Stoinis, Faulkner who doesn't seem to be bowling much I wonder what the problem is there. But Joe Burns, (who some (M Waugh) suggest he isn't a limited overs performer, good call Head selector!) pulls out a dominant display. Alex Ross hasn't done a lot this year since he took Starc, Lyon and co to the cleaners earlier in the year, but a strong performance last night. And Ben Cutting big performance. Even without Lynn the Heat are a good side to watch, and Stoinis had a blinder.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:51 am

Noone before you suggests he was a better keeper than Healy - but all agree a better bat.

Gilly knew he had to wicket keep in his spot.

His record suggests otherwise.

Player Span Mat Inns Dis Ct St Max Dis Inns Dis/Inn
Gilchrist 99-08 96 191 416 379 37 5 (5ct 0st) 2.178
IA Healy 88-99 119 224 395 366 29 6 (6ct 0st) 1.763
RW Marsh 70-84 96 182 355 343 12 6 (6ct 0st) 1.950

Even has a better record than "Old Iron Gloves"
Last edited by baggygreenmania on Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:01 am

Baggers, because what you're suggesting implies, Hadlee, Lillee, McGrath, Harris and many other line and length bowlers should never have taken as many wickets as they did, it should have been the bowler at the other end.

I am not implying that.. Those blokes should have been given more credit for the many wickets their partner took because of their l/l accuracy and pressure building qualities.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby MikeR68 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:18 am

Baggers are you going to take me up on the offer, or is it you think I'm not being lenient enough?

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:25 am

Faulkner who doesn't seem to be bowling much I wonder what the problem is there. But Joe Burns, (who some (M Waugh) suggest he isn't a limited overs performer, good call Head selector!) pulls out a dominant display.

Why is 10 not replaying the BBL?

Joe is a fine limited overs player Mike. I recall when he first started to put forward his name how his game looked suited to the shorter formats. His striking was as clean as anyone in the game. He is my smokie for an ODI berth soon. Faulkner had a serious shoulder injury (think) which put him out of cricket for a good part of last season. I saw him bat in hilites today did he also bowl ?

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:34 am

MikeR68 wrote:Baggers are you going to take me up on the offer, or is it you think I'm not being lenient enough?
If Haze does not perform to a world class standard over the next 34 tests then yes I am prepared to eat my words Mike. Maths was never my stronmg suit. You want him to get to 150 wkts by his 38th test.. correct. That is 17 more wickets in four tests. He has 15 wkts in past three tests, he will get those. Hazlewood started his career averaging 5 wkts a tests.. no reason why he can not do same again.
Last edited by baggygreenmania on Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:51 am

baggygreenmania wrote:Noone before you suggests he was a better keeper than Healy - but all agree a better bat.

Gilly knew he had to wicket keep in his spot.

His record suggests otherwise.

Player Span Mat Inns Dis Ct St Max Dis Inns Dis/Inn
Gilchrist 99-08 96 191 416 379 37 5 (5ct 0st) 2.178
IA Healy 88-99 119 224 395 366 29 6 (6ct 0st) 1.763
RW Marsh 70-84 96 182 355 343 12 6 (6ct 0st) 1.950

Even has a better record than "Old Iron Gloves"


Of course he does. He played in a much stronger team.

And for the stumpings - keeping to McGill and Warne helped. Healy had years of Peter Taylor.

Marsh kept to O'Keefe.

You're better than this Baggers.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:55 am

MikeR68 wrote:
baggygreenmania wrote:Compare Starc & Hazlewoods Bowling, Starc goes at 3.4 runs an over, Hazlewood 2.89, who's the better bowler. Answer : both, they compliment each other superbly, Hazlewoods accuracy and ability to maintain the pressure allow Starc to go all out at the other end. They are developing into a superb opening Pace Attack, throw Cummins in behind them and hopefully Pattinson in the future you have a Phenomenal attack.
With you 100% on this Mick. Someone like McGrath, Hazlewood, Harris, Bird or even Siddle make life easier for the Starcs/Pattinsons in our attack. The pressure built by constant accuracy can bring about a rash shot against someone like a Starc/ Pattinson who are quicker usually than the seamer but as they mix their deliveries can provide more scoring chances. I believe this is where the value Hazlewood brings to our attack is undestimated by Mike. His ability to hit a spot, that channel just outside off stump repeatedly..put the batsman in two minds whether to play or not creates wickets for the more wayward bowling partner..


Lets just agree to disagree Baggers, because what you're suggesting implies, Hadlee, Lillee, McGrath, Harris and many other line and length bowlers should never have taken as many wickets as they did, it should have been the bowler at the other end.

But I'll do you a deal, considering McDermott took his 150th wicket in his 61st innings, McGrath in his 65th innings, Johnson in his 65th innings but Starc took 70 innings, I'll give Hazlewood till the end of the 2nd test South Africa, that's 38 tests or 72 innings to take his and if he does that, I'll say it is justification for his continued selection even though I feel it is a below average performance, even though he took longer than many before him and considering Starc who had a poor start to his career and Josh had a brilliant start to his, first 50 wickets in 23 innings. But if he doesn't do it you have to admit that NSW players do not have to perform as well as others to be continually selected. And we'll leave it at that as neither of us will change their opinion. 72 innings for 150 wickets C'mon you have to admit that is fair, 11 innings longer than McDermott. And I haven't even bought out my big gun Swerv'n Merv Hughes, belly and all.

But what about the T20, not much to report from the first game apart from Watson shows more class than many upcomers even pushing 37. But what about the performance of Stoinis, Faulkner who doesn't seem to be bowling much I wonder what the problem is there. But Joe Burns, (who some (M Waugh) suggest he isn't a limited overs performer, good call Head selector!) pulls out a dominant display. Alex Ross hasn't done a lot this year since he took Starc, Lyon and co to the cleaners earlier in the year, but a strong performance last night. And Ben Cutting big performance. Even without Lynn the Heat are a good side to watch, and Stoinis had a blinder.


Uhmm - Hadlee swung the new ball despite bowling in the channel. Don't compare him to McGrath ever, thanks. Unlike McGrath - Hadlee made Aus (and the legendary WI) his b1tch whereas McGrath got Atherton out a lot. We have sfa legendary cricketers this side of the Tasman - please don't sell our best ever short.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby baggygreenmania » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:59 am

Of course he does. He played in a much stronger team.

And for the stumpings - keeping to McGill and Warne helped. Healy had years of Peter Taylor.

Marsh kept to O'Keefe.

You're better than this Baggers.


So records mean nothing to you Paddles? How else do you determine the true quality of a player if not for those? So McGrath was not our greatest ever pace bowler even tho his records shows he was.?

I am talking overall dismissals by Gilly not just stumpings. Forget who was the bowler. That should not come into the equasion. A dismissal is a dismissal and Gilly achieved more than both Marsh and Healy in a shorter time.. I am surprised at his stumpings..very impressive. Would have reckoned you had to have been a bloody good keeper to keep to Warne and McGill. And Gilly was as his record proves.
Last edited by baggygreenmania on Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:00 am

baggygreenmania wrote:Of course he does. He played in a much stronger team.

And for the stumpings - keeping to McGill and Warne helped. Healy had years of Peter Taylor.

Marsh kept to O'Keefe.

You're better than this Baggers.


So records mean nothing to you Paddles? How else do you determine the true quality of a player if not for those?


I love records.

I understand records.

For the record, Gilly played in a much stronger (world #1) team with 2 legendary spinners (not incl ol' Blue hair Colin Miller). Healey spent years with Peter Taylor and Marsh had O'Keefe.

Pretty simple for me really. How 'bout chu?

Btw I rate the skull as an analyst (and raconteur) highly. But as a player, well. Not exactly the stuff that dreams are made of.
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Re: BAGGY GREEN: The Many Faces Of Australian Cricket

Postby Boycs » Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:11 am

I could quantify my love for stats
And numbers straight and true,
The average length of my house cats,
My time spent on the loo,

The average times blinked per second
Number of books owned (quite a few)
Amount of sneezes - lots I reckon
Hours spent in a queue

But it wouldn’t matter but a jot,
I say with confidence to you,
Suffice to tell my collar gets hot
When a glut of stats ensue.