Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:07 am

Kane Williamson (c) (1st ODI only), Todd Astle, Trent Boult, Neil Broom (2nd & 3rd ODIs only) Colin de Grandhomme, Lockie Ferguson, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Adam Milne, Colin Munro, Henry Nicholls, Mitchell Santner (2nd & 3rd ODIs only), Tim Southee (1st ODI only), Ross Taylor, George Worker.

Neil Broom will play ahead of Tom Bruce?

George Worker will play for Guptill. Okay, NZ are short of opening batsmen, and Worker gets runs domestically even if he scores at a snails' pace for NZ.

But Neil Broom ahead of Tom Bruce?

Henry Niccolls ahead of Tom Bruce?

Why is Tom Bruce being denied opportunities? He plays to his role, not just his average. He sacrifices his wicket for the good of the team.

The worst thing is that the WI team bowlers are so weak, some of these players may actually look good and then get in the team against superior opposition, as has been the case with Broom in the past.

Glen Phillips, Mark Chapman and Tom Bruce would have all been better selections. If the issue is cos they will have to bat at 3 with Munro opening, move Niccolls up, cos he just isn't worth protecting against the new ball.

Looking at the squads,

It appears NZ will play 6 batsmen with Latham keeping, then 5 bowlers,

Likely teams:

1st ODI

1 Worker
2 Munro 6
3 KW
4 Ross
5 Latham +
6 Niccolls
7 Bracewell 5
8 Astle 4
9 Fergusson 3
10 Southee 2
11 Boult 1

2 and 3rd ODI

1 Worker
2 Munro 6
3 Broom
4 Ross
5 Latham +
6 Niccolls
7 Bracewell 5
8 Santner 4
9 Henry 2
10 Fergusson 3
11 Boult 1

I think Ferguson will def get a match, if not more this series.

[Edit] CDG on berravement for his father and Milne is injured and replaced by Rance. After Astle's good showing in game 1 - will the selectors try and squeeze him in for another game at least?
Last edited by Paddles on Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:29 am

Chris Cairns pays tribute to 'loyal friend' Dion Nash

Chris Cairns has paid tribute to his "extremely loyal" friend and former New Zealand cricket teammate Dion Nash who helped him when he needed it most.

In Canvas Magazine, in today's Weekend Herald, Nash has spoken of why he helped his former team-mate when Cairns hit his lowest ebb.

Cairns said Nash and wife Bernice Mene opened their house to him and his family during the build-up to the 2015 trial in Britain when he was found not guilty of perjury in relation to match-fixing allegations.

"He and Bernie always made us welcome," Cairns said. "That's probably the greatest gift you could give - just opening the front door and letting someone in.

"The great thing with him was that he didn't take a side; he just opened his house to a mate, and listened."

Cairns said that would never be forgotten as he, wife Mel and their children rebuild their lives in Canberra. The former all-rounder is seeking employment and hoped a few things would "come to fruition soon".

"When I get back into my life, hopefully I can repay the friendship some day."

"During that time there were two sides to the argument and Dion would listen to this side and that side.

"He was someone who was a passionate New Zealand cricketer, but it was upsetting for him that two factions, if you like, were at war."

Nash told Canvas he and Cairns were friends, competitors and rivals when they played for New Zealand.

"It wasn't always a nice relationship - sometimes it was downright aggressive. But at the same time, when you move on from the sport, you remember those five or six players that held that group together and felt we really achieved something.

"So when he got in all of this trouble, I found it really hard to see a guy I did respect and had so much time for and did call a friend so far outside the tent of cricket and on his own.

"Of course the truth of it is it was tiring and taxing on everyone - especially, for Chris [I think he] is still very much in the wilderness and suffering from all the fallout. There's two sides to the story and Chris has been cleared in court - you have to take it at that."

Cairns rates Nash as the most competitive cricketer he played with in an international career spanning more than 16 years.

"There's not one cricketer who I would categorise above Dion in that capacity whether that was warm-ups, walking down the street or on the field of play. There were no blurred lines regarding how competitive he was.

"People looked at him and saw the white line fever, but deep inside he had a smart cricket brain. I think he was exceptionally perceptive.

"He had this remarkable ability to come at problems from angles we hadn't considered. He would often throw gems in at team meetings and you would think 'gee that's a really good point'."

Cairns regretted that Nash only played in 19 of his 62 tests and 51 of his 215 one-day internationals.

"He's a deep thinker who doesn't suffer fools but wants to get to the core of something. He and I never played enough together. When we were bowling together we had a healthy competiveness for what we were trying to achieve.

"We had a period for two to three years where we had a really good side and Dion was at the centre of that. Our shared endeavour was winning games for New Zealand.

"We weren't the easiest of characters [to get along with] compared to others in the team, but we were always inquisitive."

Nash works as managing director of Triumph & Disaster, the cosmetics brand he founded in 2011.

Cairns respects his friend's business acumen as much as his sporting talent.

"He deserves all the success in the world for his take on life, how hard he works, and his passion.

"He has created something from nothing, survived and it's flourished into a global enterprise. There's no more determined man than Dion. He's got good advisers around him and he keeps an open mind.

"He remained loyal, as a friend who doesn't judge."

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:30 am


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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Dec 14, 2017 5:32 am

I found Dion Nash one of the most competitive cricketers on the field, he had a certain ruthlessness about him.

Cairns was an exceptional all rounder but caught up in the match fixing thing.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:23 am

Just seen that Finn “hopes to be fit for tr New Zealand tour”

Are we going to New Zealand after the ashes?

Love NZ tours such a beautiful place.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:56 am

Boycs wrote:Just seen that Finn “hopes to be fit for tr New Zealand tour”

Are we going to New Zealand after the ashes?

Love NZ tours such a beautiful place.


Theres a t20 tri series between NZ, Aus and Eng.

Then a "proper" England tour with 2 tests and 5 odi.

The 1st test is a day nighter - so you will have breakfast cricket.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:39 am

Paddles wrote:
bolero wrote:Ok, let me clarify. I was not online for some time. I am saying that all these ex cricketers who were implicated (rightly or wrongly) are going to court to clear their name. Happened with Azhar and Sreesanth also.

AP High Court calls Azhar ban illegal

he Andhra Pradesh High Court on Thursday said the life ban imposed on Mohammad Azharuddin by the Board of Control for Cricket in India (BCCI) on match fixing charges was unsustainable by law, even as the former Indian skipper said he was happy because he could clear his name in the episode. Azharuddin ruled out playing active cricket and refused to blame anybody over the entire episode saying it all was fated to happen- both the accusations and the court verdict favouring him. A division bench of the court set aside the order given by a lower court that had upheld the ban and struck down the life ban imposed on the former Indian batsman.

"I am very happy...I don´t want to blame anybody," said Azharuddin but he did not betray any emotion. "The only thing I had in my favour is infinite patience," the former Indian captain said. "From the point of view of cricket, it is very important that my name has been cleared," he said. When asked whether he would play cricket, the Hyderabadi said: "Do you think I can play? I have not played cricket in a long time." He, however, said he wants to do something for cricket and the youngsters. Reacting on the issue, BCCI vice-president Rajeev Shukla said the next step would be taken only after going through the court´s decision. "BCCI´s legal team will analyze the judgement and react after that," Shukla told reporters.

http://www.sify.com/news/ap-high-court- ... jhcsi.html


What does any of this have to do with Crowe?

What has this to do with Cairns suing Modi and then charged with perjury and then found not guilty?

Are you intent to derail my NZ Cricket thread with an Indian cricketer match fixing saga? Because, with respect, I'll politely ask a mod to move your posts to a new thread.


Nope, I dont intend to derail your thread. Will post in a separate thread.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:58 am

Done.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:23 pm

Jeet Raval with a spectacular innings against the West Indies in a 50 over warm up game after not being wanted by his local t20 franchise.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17952/scorecard/1129670/new-zealand-xi-vs-west-indians-tour-match/

169 off 150 balls as NZXI chased down 289. NZXI only had 3 batsmen of note in Raval, Popli and Solia, 2 made runs and the 3rd was not out.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:22 am

Seifert and Philips both made big runs as NZ wicket keepers continue to shine this summer.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:11 am

Corey Anderson injured, Scott Kuggeliejn injured, Jimmy Neesham bowling pies, Colin de Grandhomme on bereavement following the death of his father means that the NZ seam allrounder for the ODI series vs WI will be:

Doug Bracewell.

Yes, Doug Bracewell.

The same Doug Bracewell who gets into trouble with Jesse Ryder, and even more trouble without him nearby, has been given a reprieve by NZC and yet another comeback opportunity. When he pinched Neil Wagner's spot in the test team as an allrounder - he disappointed to impress, but he has yet another opportunity (Colin Munro must wonder why he has only played 1 test).

Well, as with all NZ players I wish him well, but it does make the no Ryder policy look a tad daft with Dougie's history. And there's no question which of the two has more talent.

For the record, Jesse's last 4 scores in List A and T20 are 107, 4, 54 and 84- the last score of 84 off 40 balls.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:48 am

Is Doug Bracewell related to John Bracewell by any chance ?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:53 am

bolero wrote:Is Doug Bracewell related to John Bracewell by any chance ?


Yes. He is the son of Brendon - a former NZ intl fast bowler, which is John's brother.

The Bracewells are a cricket force in NZ - and John was a leader of the Anti-Martin Crowe ill feeling. They loathed each other. Martin allegedly caused John Bracewell's retirement by telling him he wouldn't be in the NZ team when he was captain. Brendon also retired at the same time.

There's even more Bracewells who have played in FC, Michael Bracewell is a batsman in the runs at the moment, Doug's cousin. There were 4 brothers in NZ FC incl John and Brendon.

Doug grew up locally with Boult and KW. The nepotism calls have been silenced with his 4/for. But KW didn't bowl him out. Tells you a lot.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:23 pm

As expected, Todd Astle's great game of 3/33 and 15* has thrown the cat among the pigeons with regard himself and Sodhi.

Personally, I think Santner has proven himself as a whiteball cricketer against India in India, and against Australia at home. His has an E/R of under 5, and then should not be taken lightly.

Sodhi is still the selector's favourite 2nd spinner for t20 based on his stellar World T20 in 2015. Yes he has better wicket taking stats than Santner in the format. But the selectors have made it known that they want more runs with the bat, Santner and Astle put out much better batting so far. But Sodhi has been working on his batting, and even hit a t20 50 this week.

If Astle gets another game or 2 in the 50 overs and continues to impress, say against Pakistan, the real issue is the test position of Santner. Santner currently bats 6, so runs are required. But Astle has scored plenty of runs this year, and appears the far more likely bowler to take a wicket of the two. And he does so more cheaply than Ish at FC level anyway.

At this stage, I wouldn't rule out Astle getting another test opportunity soon. Or at least the calls for him to get a go becoming louder.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:29 am

Astle made a valuable 49 with the bat in the 2nd odi, and now the pressure on Santner in a shoot out with Astle is seeming more and more likely each day.

Niccolls made an 80 plus score in a good innings. But I am still far from convinced he is a better choice than Bruce in any format. Good innings tho - his best since Pakistan odi, if not ever.

Worker made another 50 of square and behind hitting. I still prefer Munro to open with Gup.

This WI side is barely intl standard.

But Astle did make pressure runs - which is a big criticism of Santner
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:07 am

Enjoyable feasting on the weak with 7-for for lightning Boult. 7/30-ish is a nice analysis no matter the opposition eh?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:48 am

Boycs wrote:Enjoyable feasting on the weak with 7-for for lightning Boult. 7/30-ish is a nice analysis no matter the opposition eh?


The first wicket was a cracker. There were a lot of soft wickets, tho.

Boult is quality when at his best.

Today may be his finest figures, but not his finest hour. WI are very poor. Ferguson took 3 wickets in his 4 overs too.

Whether Boult can carve England better than Jimmy hurts NZ at summer's end is what really matters this season. The T20 tri series would be nice to win too.

Only SA has visited NZ of late and won the odi series. WI isn't enjoyable to watch the feasting on. Srsly, NZ rested Gup (hammy is fine now) KW Southee and Santner and still won easy. But then so did a NZXI with only 4 players of note who even then were left out of the t20 franchises.

WI just rely on Lewis far too much to score bulk runs. At least NZ share the burden among Gup, KW and Taylor.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:33 pm

Though when people talk about test performances being worth more than one day ones I feel they’re largely talking about batting, I’m one of those that always look to a bowlers test stats first too.

And Trent’s are sitting pretty. NZ have a fair attack to take to England whenever that will next happen

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:36 pm

Boycs wrote:Though when people talk about test performances being worth more than one day ones I feel they’re largely talking about batting, I’m one of those that always look to a bowlers test stats first too.

And Trent’s are sitting pretty. NZ have a fair attack to take to England whenever that will next happen


https://streamable.com/6871j

Englands here this summer/autumn.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:32 pm

Bring it on!

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Yorkshire » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:03 am

I read in newspaper about Bowlers Helmet starts in Newzeland's t20's Domestic,great idea, 'cause bowler injured in England while batsman playing uppish strokes.

I think eventually ICC should mandatory starts in international cricket about bowlers Helmet Law.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Yorkshire » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:06 am

Boycs wrote:Bring it on!


5 ODI Feb/march
2 tests in march

Eng vs NZ

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:42 am

I'll do a proper post after the match; but Santner t20 baseball (imagine a Steve Smith trigger movement left more open to off side) style batting stance - A+++++++!

Feeling the demand for runs especially with Astle and Sodhi batting performances - and the Santner kid develops his power game.

Top stuff!

I may call for Astle to take his test spot later this year - but make no mistake - I like Santner's talent and developmental attitude. If he could just stop grassing 1/10 easy catches.

One thing is noticable - Santner and Niccolls - both under selection pressure - have both obviously been in the nets further developing their games. It doesn't change much in tests - but does change their dynamics as whiteball players.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:16 am

Okay, safe to say the biggest emerging story in NZC is that of Mark Chapman.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/438563.html

This kid starred in the T20 comp last year and gotta NZC call up with Glen Phillips, unlike Glen he didn't get a game.

We only get a handfull of local T20 games televised, but this kid has starred with a dashing 50 and a breath taking 100.

More importantly in the 100, he completely outshone Niccolls and Latham and hit 6 6's at Hagley, which is a more than fair sized ground even by Aussie standards.

These are his numbers for Auckland alone:

LA: 586 @ 53.27 hitting at 90+
T20: 422 @ 35.17 hitting at 160+

So he is rightfully the most in-form non Black cap in town. And is developing a fan base.

Tom Bruce suffered the fate of a brilliant Braithwaite catch, that now has his further push for higher honors stalled. Personally, most NZC fans disagree with Kitchen's callup, as do I, as 5 bowlers plus Munro, KW and Kitchen is just a tad excessive.

Chapman is only a small guy, with a smallish bat, which makes his 6 hitting remarkable, which is helped in no end according to his former slogging coach Andre Adams by his strong "hip lock" (think about golf swing incorporated into cricket shots). He plays at the top opf the order for Auckland at 3, runs hard the first few balls and throughout, but then mixes in big hits, so he looks to start like Kohli and then seek to bat like Dhoni is meant to.

The selectors have put great stock in Worker recently. Solia is back from injury now. But Chapman is continuing on again this season. This is tricky for the selectors who have to get the right new players in and given a chance this year to be ready for the 2019 World Cup. Unlike Worker, I prefer Chapman's far wider scoring zones, he has a lot more shots and hustles more. England is the next World Cup host and has small boundaries. Chapman is def a candidate for the team to put pressure on Niccolls.

I feel for Bruce, he ought to have played 50 overs by now. I don't feel for Worker dropped after 2 50's, who himself has said he needed 100's to keep his place ahead of Munro or Guptill.

Pakistan's 50 over team will be here with its bowling attack in all its glory. This will test Munro against real pace to see if he is the man to open. I hope he succeeds. That then leaves Niccols to prove he is the best option at number 6, and not Bruce, Chapman or Solia.
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Re: New Zealand vs Pakistan: 5 ODI & 3 T20I; Jan 6-28, 2018 at New Zealand

Postby Boycs » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:10 pm

Anyway. I’d like to talk to Paddles some more.

Paddles. Who is your favourite NZ player of yesteryear? Retired players.

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Re: New Zealand vs Pakistan: 5 ODI & 3 T20I; Jan 6-28, 2018 at New Zealand

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:00 am

Boycs wrote:Anyway. I’d like to talk to Paddles some more.

Paddles. Who is your favourite NZ player of yesteryear? Retired players.


Will get back to you on that Boycs, but as of today NZ is now #1 in T20, with Munro the best batsman and Sodhi the best bowler.

Congrats to the team and these players in particular. And congrats to the domestic structure that despite not getting stuff all games on tv is producing a supply of excellence.

Really peeved that some 7th ranked t20 nation missing its intl players and trying to fill 8 teams is on our tv nearly every day while the #1 ranked and domestic filling only 6 teams is a rarity.

C'mon Sky, you charge your customers plenty to buy monopoly sports rights, broadcast 'em. Or let free to air tv successfully bid to get the domestic rights already.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:50 pm

Well its about that time of the year again that some journo in NZ thinks it would be a great idea to have a NZ team in the BBL.

No analysis done on what ifs, but simply an expectation of 80% crowd ticket sales and $$$. For 1 team, with no fixed abode, just wandering the country like gypseys, a poor man's national team.

So lets think about this then. Most international touring teams (outside of World Cup) are unable to get 80% ticket sales at Wellington Stadium or Eden Park, so do we really think that a domestic comp will achieve this? Admittedly Australia are with England the 2 biggest ticket sellers for NZ cricket, but will their domestic teams achieve the same ticket sales. They don't in rugby. Nor league, intl or domestic.

However, focusing on ticket sales to me demonstrates the journo's shortness of thought. The money is in broadcast fees, not ticket sales. And that will go to Cricket Australia. Now lets say that Cricket Australia gives NZC some money for the NZ rights sold. What will Sky pay for these? Sky it appears to have failed to secure NZ's last tour to South Africa, so the South Africans gave it away free to NZ'ers via internet stream. Sky has the domestic rights to all NZ cricket, and yet only shows a mere handful of t20 games and 1 sole 50 over game, the final. One can only assume that Sky does not think its worth paying for the video footage production costs when it can go show cheap foreign media and ensure that noone locally is broadcasting the product. (CA was smart here by splitting between Fox, Ch9 and Ch10 its products).

Sky is already getting the BBL cheap to broadcast with no NZ team in it, so I cannot imagine them gushing to pay a big sign on fee.

So, at the end of the day it is very debatable whether it would mean more money for NZC. It would mean more money for a handful of NZ players.

Now lets look at the cost -

it would completely devalue the local t20 comp for ticket sales and broadcast value (which Sky has already set pretty low) of 6 teams for 2 full rounds plus finals.

More than that, it would create 5 teams worth of players unemployed for the competitions duration over the silly season. This is just asking for trouble.

But lets now look at practical value to NZC, cos the real money is in having an intl team that Indians want to see play. NZ has got to number 1 in T20 at the time of writing, our domestic comp has nurtured the current #1 batsman in Colin Munro and #1 bowler in Ish Sodhi. Today I watched a local t20 game that featured current international stars Ish Sodhi, Glenn Phillips, Colin de Grandhomme, Chris Jordan, and possible future international stars like Sean Solia, Tom Seifert, Mark Chapman and Sam Curran, as well as past internationals like Ronnie Hira and Anton Devicich.

The match was high quality. The players on display were high quality. A score over 200 was chased down. The grass banks were packed. Of the 6 T20 domestic teams in NZ, 5 are studded with quality, Otago is crap and has dropped former internationals Neesham and Rutherford. But the rest of the teams have international quality past and present players worth watching.

So right now, through this competition, which tells us to watch and follow players that we have seen progress to world class players, we'd know who to pick in an "NZA BBL" team but what about in 3 years? What about in 5 years? How would Mark Chapman's, Tom Bruce's and Glen Phillip's talents be identified? Some domestic competition bereft of an international and then next best full club squad? That hardly screams quality when we have 6 teams giving opportunities to players to develop at a similar level (arguably higher if the world rankings are indicative).

The next possible solution is to merge the comps, and create a super rugby type, even try and get Safrica on board. But Aussies are much more interested in playing Aussies. It will start to impact on the value of the product that they created successfully for themselves. They're not going to chop back on their current franchises to create a 5 Aus teams, 4 SA teams and 3 NZ teams structure readily now that they have built up a successful BBL product. And current Super Rugby politics is not exactly giving them a glowing recommendation too neither. Further SA time zones are not ideal.

So this is my conclusion. NZ cricketers know that the domestic T20 comp, which won't pay them the $30 to $50k that the Aus comp will, does provide a pathway to millions of IPL dollars. For NZC, they know the domestic comp provides a pathway for NZC to reach #1 in the rankings. What NZC should do, not sell all its sport in a package, but see if someone will take on the domestic broadcast duties to try and make it profitable or reach a wider audience. NZC on the smell of an oily rag has managed to put together a domestic comp that is thriving in terms of quality, and is getting the international team ready to achieve better results, and still attracts fair talent from England past and present (Mills, Patil, Curran, Jordan) and SL (Jayawardene).

So for all the former Kiwi players who are earning BBL dollars now and say that NZ ought to get a BBL team, I'd like to see a detailed suggested solution of how it would benefit NZC and its players as a whole. Its not CA's job to look after NZC's best interests. But while even the most disinterested in cricket fan enjoys Sodhi' spinning the Aussies for NZ to win a Chappel Hadlee again at home, just think Sodhi wouldn't be where he is without the domestic infrastructure of 6 teams that gave him the opportunities to play and get better.

NZ does not have the population to make hugely profitable tv products for our market like Australia and India have done. Our focus should still be on the big picture, protecting our supporting infrastructure for the international game which brings in revenue, and advancing cricket interest here by getting our own t20 games on TV.

Part of the glitz and glammour of the BBL is the big stadiums and big crowds. Those derby match sized crowds will not turn out for a NZ team playing. No matter how good or poor they are. Heck, they hardly turn out for the internationals played in Australia that aren't part of the Ashes.

Instead of being a joinner inner, NZC ought to look at how it can get more broadcasted domestic games, and more people at the games to make the product more appealing to a casual fan. We don't need NRL glitz type participation to make international stars that get paid. Super Rugby and NPC is good enough to fuel the All Blacks. Aussie is 7th in T20 for a reason.

Maybe here's an idea, maybe SKY instead of buying the BBL rights next season, spend that money on broadcasting more domestic games.

If any team was going to join Australian cricket, send a Academy or A Team for Shield or 50 over warmups each year.

But we add no value to their comp unless to our own detriment, and whatever financial gain, if any, NZC gets from their participation comes at the expense of a domestic quality infrastructure, which may hurt our international team value and offset that money far more so. So until a viable solution is suggested, lets just keep sending our former players there, but keep our current ones playing here. It'd be nice to get some coaches back tho, especially Bondy. We can make Munro's to replace BMac, and Fergussons and Milnes to replace Mitch. If they go, we'll make some Chapmans or Phillips' and Kuggelijns or Bennetts. That is the value of a quality infrastructure. Having only 1 quality domestic side (picked from where and how?) for 6 weeks over summer would risk putting such a massive dent in this ability. It was our domestic comp that let selectors decide that Elliot was ready for a recall and had a power game as well as batsmanship before the last World Cup.

Our domestic comp is doing its part in producing quality limited overs players. Put them on tv and accept we just don't have crowds that demand attending night games, but we will have evening cricket viewers and steady crowds with viewers also over holidays for day games. Want to raise NZ cricket standards? Forget about the BBL. Have more A tours away. The last A tour to India was given a major task to focus of sorting out NZ wicket keeper depth post Ronchi. Well, did they ever! Phillips, Latham, Blundell, (Seifert is in the mix too) as well as the established Watling are all ready for various wicket keeping gigs now. The NZA Tour didn't seem to harm Todd Astle's preparation as an internationally recalled bowler to seize an opportunity this summer neither. The NZA team was thrashed, not selected for best team on park per se with all those wicket keepers playing each game, but best strengthening weak areas in the NZ team. It achieved its purpose. Even Niccolls is starting to look like like a limited overs batsman now.

So unless joining the BBL comes with a huge cheque from CA, and I don't see how it would, when CA pays the rest of it franchises not much more than the salaries of players under a salary cap (as it owns the franchises), I do not see the why, what or the how as to how it would benefit NZ cricket in the least. Heck, CA have already sold the broadcast rights of the BBL into NZ. The BBL is a cash cow for CA, and good business for them. It makes them money. So can NZC really find a way that increases the profitability for both CA and NZC to benefit from a NZ team in the comp? I don't automatically see how it is good business (wrecking the existing domestic structure's quality) or good for cricket in NZ for NZC to put a team in the comp. This is not like the Phoenix Soccer, Breakers Basketball and NZ Warriors Rugby League scenario at all, sports where a weekly club focus on tv with more presence than internationals and no or minimal player quotas outweighs regular international series. Not yet anyway. Let's hope that the situation does not ever get that bleak for NZC. Cricket is still an internationals based game, franchise t20 may change that in time, at which point NZC will have its hand forced to look to Australia, and at that point Australia may have to look to Safrica and subcontinent as well if the IPL becomes the NBA or NRL of the sport and the BBL becomes more like the A-League or English Super League.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:16 am

@Jimmy Neesham, just look to hit the top of off stump repeatedly, even if you drop in pace to 125 and 130km/h, set your fields for it in play, learn to bowl a yorker well too, and spend your time in the nets against far more spinners than seamers. Do this, you'll be back in black contention in no time without all the critics and unwarranted criticism.

Good luck bouncing back Jimmy.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:54 am

So Auckland and Christchurch for the two Tests against England.

Auckland looks stunning on Google. Christchurch slightly less so but maybe it's just some bad photographs.

Paddles, no one deserves to leave in such majestic landscape. I am jealous of all Kiwis, and Canadians.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:12 am

Boycs wrote:So Auckland and Christchurch for the two Tests against England.

Auckland looks stunning on Google. Christchurch slightly less so but maybe it's just some bad photographs.

Paddles, no one deserves to leave in such majestic landscape. I am jealous of all Kiwis, and Canadians.


Huh? Aucklands really not that pretty compared to Queenstown and South Island sights that few Aucklanders can afford to see with any regularity, if at all. What on earth were you looking at? The harbour is great if you can afford a boat.

There's really not many sights in Auckland worthy of such a post. Auckland is however a good city to live in with a fair climate and population. But good housing prices are exceeding wages rapidly and transport is an issue.

Hagley in Christchurch is a much prettier test cricket ground than the rugby stadium in Auckland's Eden Park, but the Garden City is sadly ravaged with earth quakes. Eden Park when full for an ODI aint as bad as Aussies make out tho despite small boundaries.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:31 am

I google'd Auckland images - that's all from harbour of city scape or of harbour. That's not the real Auckland for most of us. Auckland aint 100k pop like Townsville.

Watch the movie 'Once were warriors' or the music video of Smashproof 'brother' for a harsh counter view.

Auckland is known as the City of Sails - meaning it takes a boat to fully appreciate its beauty. Christchurch is the Garden City - you do the math. But cold in winter and shakey. Great source of NZ sportsmen tho with Auckland.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:46 am

Fair enough.

I don't live in a place worthy of a nickname in the UK :D

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:47 am

Boycs wrote:Fair enough.

I don't live in a place worthy of a nickname in the UK :D


Where do you live?

Sorry if I was curt, I agree that NZ has Canadian rivalling if not exceeding beauty. But its a many kms and dollars from Auckland to enjoy on a regular basis.

As someone who has lived in Auckland a very long time, I see sightseeing busses for tourists and laugh and wonder - where on earth does it go?
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:32 am

Welcome back Lord Colin de Grandhomme to the Blackcaps.

The squeeze for 2 places between 3 players of CDG, Tastle and Santner will presumably see CDG and Santner as the "A" team but I am also fairly sure that the selectors still want to see more of Tastle. CDG's ODI credentials are not as good as his test credentials, with his bowling often not being bowled out, and his brutal batting power not yet featuring in a win.

I'm pleased that Henry Niccolls has started to make some runs in the pyjama game. With increasing pressure for selection from in form domestic batsman Mark Chapman, and somehow keeping Tom Bruce out of the team for so long, Niccolls has hit 2 good innings at home this summer already. While he may not be the best choice, as a long term failing incumbent, it is pleasing that he is no longer hampering the team as much as he was. In fact, if he continues his rate of improvement, he may just end up being a good player. But that still leaves that if's but's and maybe's as to Chapman and Bruce.

Where there a remaining issue though is at 5, where Tom Latham despite making runs in the sub continent, is still not producing the goods at home. Fortunately for Tom, Bruce and Chapman are not keepers tho the latter was at school boy level. Interestingly Niccolls does have some time with the gloves at top level, but Glen Phillips, Tim Seifert and Tom Blundell will be paying great attention to Latham's run scoring.

Lockie Ferguson as a work on progress as the 3rd seamer behind Boult and Southee ahead of Henry and Milne as well as Bennett is making progress. 3/39 in his last game and a ball bowled at 153.4 in a game before display he is still progressing and probably still has higher potential to reach than he has so far.

1 Guppie
2 Munro (6)
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Latham/Phillips/(Seifert)
6 Niccolls (Chapman/Bruce)
7 CDG/Astle (5) (Anderson could come back)
8 Santner (4)
9 Southee (2)
10 Fergusson (3)
11 Boult (1)

Looking at the team structure Hess now has, I really like it for a World Cup in England in 2019. The 6 or out approach of Munro is paying greater dividends so far with the field up in the first 10 where his skied balls often don't cost him his wicket. He has also been bowling very cheap fill in overs with both his mediums and fast off spins. England is likely to have a bit of swing and spin, and if it spins, Astle is being groomed as the second spinner with Santner. If if it seams and swings as a greater threat, CDG is there if Anderson is not back and outplaying him with his own power batting and back of a length bowling. There is a specialist batsman at 6, which is better than the ICC Champions trophy team which had (out of form) allrounders from 6 on. There are 5 frontline bowling options with Munro in the bank as a 6th in case Astle, CDG or Anderson struggle.

So I like the balance far more than what we had last year. To strengthen the batting side, it would be great if Kuggeleijn could get fit and challenge for the 2nd or 3rd seamer role with his stronger batting. To do this, his way in would be to master death bowling. But that really is just a luxury bonus if CDG could find his mojo in ODI or if Anderson is back and finds his form of 2014 and 2015 and Santner continues to develop. Astle is more than useful at 8, if not spectacular. Fergusson is much weaker than Henry or Milne with the bat, but batting at 10 is less critical. The weak spot is the batting at 7. But if Anderson finds his 2015 WC form, he batted at 6 then which gives an indicator to the potential strength of this current side's structure. That said, weak at 7 with the bat is better than weak at 6 (or really 5 given Broom's lack of quality) which is what NZ had last year. I think Hesson has realized his mistake and sought to resolve it. Death bowling remains a slight issue but faith in Southee and Boult has paid results before.

Unfortunately this team structure is facilitated a lot by Munro's dual role of explosive opener and reliable 6th bowler. If his batting starts failing - NZC have a major issue. The top 4 in the batting order are just immensely critical to NZ's hopes, whereas Henry and Sodhi provide bowler depth.

Time seems to be against Solia making a claim for a spot in time unless he outplays everyone especially George Worker in the domestic comps from now until then.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:58 pm

As the series reaches its close with Pakistan, heading into the 4th match with the series already won by NZ, it is now fairly critical that Latham, Nicholls, CDG, Astle and Santner allay concerns about the soft NZ middle order from 5 to 8.

While stronger than it was at the Champions Trophy, with a specialist batsman at 6, regular runs are required rather than the odd good showing. What was most pleasing for me in the last game, was the success of Colin Munro with the ball, who is still averaging under 5 runs per over in ODI cricket. This is a good 6th bowling option for a player who's batting role is to chance his wicket in making quick runs. At some point, to either qualify for the finals or to progress through the finals at a World Cup, the middle order will be called on to bat well to facilitate a win.

On the bright side, Tom Bruce will be hoping he has done enough to keep his T20 spot with 3 good 40+ scores in the local t20 comp in a row at good tempo. He is standing out in a team that has good batting*. Kuggelijn is back from injury, and bowled a tidy 3 overs. Sodhi has continued on his way. While the starlight for domestic players is on Mark Chapman, who failed in his last knock after several good efforts this summer.

On the not so good side, Glenn Phillips has averaged less than 10 in his last 3 t20 games. Solia isn't making the big scores as yet, and Seifert has also not added significantly to his run tally in the past 2 games after a mighty impressive sequence of scores.

The Black Caps are getting some media praise for their good efforts at home of late, but it would be nice if the middle order batting shared more in the praise that the bowlers and top order batsmen are getting for their performances in those roles.

*Worker, Ryder, Young and even Taylor when available play for his province CD.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:55 am

Mitch Santner has a carrom ball that turns off the pitch. Got his his first wicket with it today. NZ cricket fans are excited.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:17 am

The native cricket fans are restless in NZ as Mark Chapman has been overlooked for the T20 team despite great form of late.

I have watched the kid play, definitely has talent. A lot of talent. But needs to work on his decision making still. A couple of dumb dismissals I saw I would not expect from a senior pro, but he is not a senior pro yet. But he hits to both usual and unsual areas. And plays with great vigour and enthusiasm. He has been left out for Taylor and Bruce. Fair enough imo. He has been told to develop his bowling more. Also fair enough imo. This is the same thing said to Colin Munro when he was dropped, and now that he is back, NZ have a much better 6th bowling option. So the NZ selectors may be playing a long game with Chapman and get him to become the player they really want at full potential.

But where the disturbance really occurs is that Anaru Kitchen in the side given his lack of form and mid 30's age. I care less about the mid 30's and his form than I do his apparent lack of comparative talent. People are saying that there is enough bowling in the side already to not require Kitchen's bowling, but if that is the role you want him for, pick the right allrounder in form, Anton Devicich. Well, this argument seems good to me.

I am happy the selectors are standing by Tom Bruce. I think he has a lot to offer NZC, and I think he could play and succeed in odi or tests in due time. I am also a fan of Mark Chapman, so while I think he wouldn't have been a bad choice, I would like to see him on NZA tours and given a pathway into the NZ team should he continue to make runs.

Anaru Kitchen, I do not get. His current form does not warrant selection for a non established player. And his talent for international cricket is questionable at best, and not overt to the naked eye. NZ are obviously on the prowl for a second spinner to play pyjama cricket that has run scoring, and fast, ability. England in 2019 WC may spin, and NZC are casting a wide net. I understand their tactics, Chapman is a left arm orthodox, Astle a leggie, Anaru a left armer, Sodhi told to work on his batting, it all points to NZ realising that a second spinner who can hit and score good runs regularly is greatly beneficial to the squad depth, and help support Santner's more inconsistent batting. The native response that Devicich is in form, will not be lost on the current selectors who have given him 16 games (t20 and odi combined) already for 2 50s and 6 wickets. Just like these same selectors gave plenty of allrounders and batsmen an opportunity before plucking Grant Elliot back in the side for the 2015 WC.

What is making things a bit more tricky, is every one's favourite player to drop, even that of the commentators, Henry Niccolls, is starting to make runs at down at 6 in the ODI team. But he is still at best a support player to a power hitter even if striking at 100. On the bright side, NZ has some serious talent in form like Chapman and Seifert, who are yet to get a call up to the National team. Meaning depth is comparatively strong in NZ right now.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:37 am

Neil Wagner didn't make icc test team of year and that Starc did is just about the final nail in the coffin of me paying reasonable reverence to the ICC annual awards.

There's talk of NZ playing a Boxing Day MCG test next year. I hope not. Learn from South Africa NZC - don't do Australian Cricket any favours at your own expense. Its not like NZ will ever host an ICC final - as Australia won't share, so why on earth give them our Holiday period when we could have teams tour NZ?

Its not like Australia would ever tour NZ over the holidays. South Africa won't tour Australia or NZ over Christmas - why on earth would NZ? If they want NZC over the holidays - make 'em pay for NZC. Its not an honour to play at the MCG on Boxing Day. Its lost revenue. And local fans missing out on going to local cricket.

An honour would be hosting an ICC final.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:29 pm

Yesterday was the final of the Super Smash, and the form team of the comp took it out.

Anton Devicich continued to star with the bat and the ball, and while not in the NZ T20 team vs Pakistan, is certainly be bandied about as a potential player to make an international comeback. Kuggs after missing most of the tournament with injury, knocked the head off CD in the first innings, and the match was all one way traffic from there as Sodhi and Devicich spun CD into trouble, and Devecich chased making a breezy 51* as an opener.

The tournament highlights were obviously Seifert, Devecich, Chapman, Sodhi, and a young English import for his batting tho hired as a bowler (awful bowling) in Curran. Many players ended with good numbers, from Will Young to Chris Jordan to Tom Bruce. But not enough games were televised. The saddest part for me was when a Sky commentator suggested that the NZ T20 was the equal to the BBL, NZ is number 1 in t20 and that this comp has produced the worlds #1 batsman and bowler in the format, but merely lacks the 40k crowds. Well, I'll go further, I think the quality of the cricket exceeds the BBL this year, however, there's just not enough of the local games televised. NZC and Sky ought to get together, and nut out a new plan, cos this current one isn't serving the tv audience well.

NZ is upto 3rd in ODI, remains 1st in T20i, and 4th in Tests. NZ with SA (1 in ODI, 2 in tests and 6 in T20) are noticeably pulling away from the performance levels of the rest of the non-big 3 nations.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:44 am

NZ has just won its 13th multi format match in a row going past Team Kohli.

But before NZ looks to the World Record of 16, the question many journalists are now asking is whether Munro will get rich in the IPL auctions.

Not whether he will be taken by a franchise, a legitimate question after Guptil has been overlooked in prior auctions, but as his reserve is set low, whether he will get rich.

Munro is currently ranked #1 in t20is. His form is undeniable; averaging 79 in 7 games this year at his typically high SR with 2 hundreds, incl one in India and 2 more 50's. Today he made 49* on a tricky pitch. His form is red hot.

He is also bowling some useful overs.

Munro is fortunate that his CPL team last year was heavy on all rounders like D Christain, A Nurse, Shadab Khan and D Bravo, but its middle order batting was only DM Bravo of note. Typically opening with BMac and Narine, this gave Munro the chance to bat at 3, and basically play opener if and when Narine or BMac failed. In fact, he even played as an opener. He succeeded. He made a run of useful scores, and some big ones, on slow pitches.

This then caught the eye of the NZ coach, who moved Munro from the middle order to open. And he succeeded. Munro was already an established international player, with a intl t20 hundred and 2 trips to the IPL for a mere 4 games, but this past season at the CPLT20 changed his fortunes, got him a recall to NZ ODI, and promoted to opener in both t20 and odi.

So now, there are reports on sportskeedia that KKR will bid high for him. Given the multi millions Steve Smith just pocketed for largely failing in the previous IPL with a very low strike rate, this may well be Munro's time to line his pockets.

Congrats Colin. I hope you become a millionaire and are able to comfortably provide for your young family. But I hope you specially thank the people at CPLT20 who gave you the opportunity at the top of the order that has drastically and deservedly changed your fortunes.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:27 pm

Philips has been dropped from the squad mid series by Hess, a rarity in NZC.

I agree with the decision.

Blundell not Seifert has been brought in as he has more middle order experience.

This would have been a very tough decision for Hess. I see the merits of his decision, more so as Munro's injury is only temporary. I think I would have given the opportunity to Seifert in the t20 decider but I see what Hesson is trying. There is more than a t20 series at stake with an injured Munro in this particular decider game given Latham's middle order odi failings and Blundell's test century and BKSS 50's this summer. Hess's is priority is the WC in England - and I respect that. He has weighted in favour of Blundell. Its not unreasonable nor ridiculous.

I hope Blundell succeeds. Seifert- keep making runs in Ford Trophy. You're the next cab off the rank.

Ben Wheeler looked okay with the bat in the T20 ina losing effort. Hesson has been on TV media admitting that he is looking for bowling talent that bats and pointing to England as an example. This is absolutely no surprise to me, as I have said previously and formed part of my complaint before the Champions Trophy, it also explains his trialing of Astle. But I knew this already. Unfortunately for Hess, he has to sell it to the NZC fans who will call for his head if it fails (as they have been over Sodhi).

What is making life very difficult for Hess, which Raja can confirm, is the enigmatic talents of Colin de Grandhomme. The guy is a good international level cricketer. But he really struggles with leg spinners. Far below international cricketer level. He has no idea in picking them. He does not read the googly. I've seen more than enough to confirm this. For a player batting 6 or 7, this is a major issue. He is very destructive with the bat against normal bowlers, tests and ODI matches against Pakistan prove this. But if the opposition has a leggie with overs up his sleeve - he is a walking wicket. This is a major concern for NZC. It effects his test play less, as there are not that many quality leggies in tests right now outside Pakistan, (India play Jadeja and Ashwin, Aus Lyon, SA Maharaj, Eng Ali, SL Herath and Afg have not played a test yet), but it is a a major problem in limited overs with all the aforementioned teams playing leggies plus more. CDG is still not a death bowling option neither, and only seems to bowl length. He lacks variety with the ball outside red ball cricket. This is an issue.

The simple answer is an in form Corey Anderson, but that will require him being purchased at the IPL and succeeding in 2018. I hope that this occurs. That still leaves Santner at 8, when NZ would like better batting, whether they play 2 spinners or 1.

NZC are really lacking a Cairns or Oram. A frontline bowler who is a good bat. And the problem is just more overt with the success of Chris Woakes in Australia, in the absence of Ben Stokes! Niccolss and Bruce have Chapman waiting for an opportunity, Munro is yet to be given another go in tests, so these positions are less of a concern as there are players in the wings waiting for an opportunity.


ISSUES IN NZC

For Latham (all formats outside playing in Asia or against Asian teams) is an issue, keeping or opening. For keeping in ODI - there is Blundell and Seifert to try. For opening in tests, noone is putting their hand up for selection.

For Niccolls in test - Munro is waiting.

For Niccolls in ODI - Chapman is waiting.

For Bruce in T20 - Niccolls and Chapman are waiting

For Anaru Kitchen in T20 - Devecich is waiting.

For CDG (or batting allrounder) in limited overs - hopefully, Corey Anderson may regain form.

For Santner in tests - maybe Astle is skilled enough to bowl and bat 6. But not exactly making big runs.

For bowling allrounder in ODI - there are none. Kuggs has missed most of the T20 season to prove himself. But he has the remainder of the Ford Trophy to press his claim.

Limited Overs Death bowler - Milne is not what he was last season. Mitch is retired and crap. Lockie is developing slowly. Henry is an opening bowler reserve to Sotuhee and Boult. Appears there are no death bowlers right now in NZ.

What concerns me most, is that India, SA and Eng look to have filled all their holes, some with spare players, well before the WC starts.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby raja » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:23 pm

Has Corey Anderson recovered from injury? He's been out a long time, hasn't he?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:02 pm

raja wrote:Has Corey Anderson recovered from injury? He's been out a long time, hasn't he?


A long time. Since winter. But he has had surgery and is in the IPL Auction at max reserve. So if bought, the IPL will be his comeback.

Fingers crossed he remembers how to bat and can bowl his full quota.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:02 am

So after being pushed around by Pakistan and Australia, all the talk in the NZ Media is about bringing in Mark Chapman to add some punch to the NZ batting.

Tom Bruce would appear to be in the most jeopardy, but KW hasn't done much. Hess has dropped Taylor before also.

I am not sure when Corey Anderson returns from injury.

TIm Seifert is an outside chance at a callup too for Blundell, as he was the form wicket keeper in the domestic T20 competition.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:28 am

Corey Anderson is irreplaceable in my opinion.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:54 pm

bolero wrote:Corey Anderson is irreplaceable in my opinion.


I agree that a fit and in form Corey is. He scored a great 90 odd in a t20i last season, but was horrid after that and barely bowled. Its been a while since Corey has had his mojo all round. CDG has done an admirable job with the bat, but his superior test bowling lacks Corey's far superior bowling variation so far for the shorter formats.

Hesson has said Chapman is being considered. But the top 3 remains as is. Hess is backing KW to the hilt. Understandable. So that means either Taylor or Bruce will get dropped. Kitchen is a given out of the squad.

News said nothing about Hess on Seifert. I wanted Bruce to succeed, but he is not grabbing his opportunities and Chapman has been shining bright in domestic - just like he used to.

Of course Hess may drop Taylor - but if Bruce didn't make a 50 - the public would quite likely have knives out for Hess. Hess isn't afraid to do his own thing and has done in past. But Bruce is running low on credit.

Chapman is a very different player. He hustles, looks to hit 4s in both orthodox and unorthodox areas with flatbats - on side from outside off, slog sweeps. No switch hitting or laps bar an occaisional scoop, but it is different. He can successfully find gaps and leave opposing captains wondering how. It is slogging, but in modern day t20 - he looks comparatively classical.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:42 am

So Simon Doull was in the press today wanting NZ to mimic Australia and change NZ's T20 formula, to drop KW and Hesson and bring in DV as a coach.

First, this won't work because DV has Brisbane Heat requirements over December January. If he doesn't after the Heat have failed to make the finals yet again, this isn't a good reason to hire him.

But worse than this. He wants NZ to copy Australia's style.

This has never been a good idea for NZC and I doubt it is now.

NZ and Australia have different talent pools. NZ does not have a giant fast bowler like Billy Stanlake. NZ does not have a player who crunches the ball straight like Chris Lynn (Munro goes square, and Guptill while go long and straight often, is more reserved than Lynn as a striker).

NZ has always played its best cricket, 1992 WC, 1999WC, 2015WC, 2016 WT20, when it does its own thing and doesn't look to copy the strongest teams, but implements its own innovations that suit our players. NZ looking to copy the more lower ranked Australia in t20 is a weak argument to me. Australia will likely climb in the t20 rankings, they have some very good talent, Warner is a t20 ATG, Lynn oozes talent, Maxwell will have good days. Starc, Stanlake, Pattinson, Cummins, Haze provide a plethora of fast bowlers to do a job with. Mitch Marsh, Stoinis and Agar are getting handier by the season. But NZ, in my opinion, need to find its own XI and game plan with the available talent that NZ has. Not try to force square pegs into round hole playing roles and styles.

NZ has two limited overs spinner better than what Australia has to choose from in Sodhi and Santner. NZ seems to continually play both, despite the pitch, as they with Boult are our best bowlers, leaving 2 bowling roles up for grabs (and on flat pitches, the double spin strategy exposed).

@SimonDoull, I would love for NZ to drop Southee and to pinch Billy Stanlake at peak or James Pattinson or a Mitchell Starc, but its not a genuine option is it? So how will NZ successfully copy Australia's new forumla, when we have different talent?

NZ need to focus on our own best players, that may mean bringing in Chapman, it may mean dropping one of the 2 superior spinners in Sodhi or Santner and playing the allrounder Devecich for more batting on flat decks. It doesn't mean we try to copy what Australia is doing when they have such different player types at their disposal. If we could find some 150km/h 6'4" plus to nigh 7` tall bowlers who are accurate, I'd be over the moon. Australia has plenty, NZ doesn't have a single one. So instead of copying Australia, we need to find an alternative method to beating them. It is that simple. Likewise re: Lynn, NZ does not have a batsman like him to bring in. We have Guppie and Munro - so lets work with what we do have at our disposal.

And lets not be splitting the coaches' role for the part time international t20 leagues coaches who will presumably take a higher paying job as soon as it is offered. Bring them in as consultants if available and budget allows by all means. But Ricky Ponting is able to do his job at 10, IPL and coach a bit of Australian t20 without significant time table clashing. It is possible due to how CA timetables the Aussie summer. He is also just a part of the infrastructure with Mark Waugh and Lehmann providing the bigger picture for Australian cricket. DV won't be able to do this as a specialist and sole NZ T20 coach. NZC has much different timetabling of the home summer.

I've said before and I say it again, pick the best team of XI players available, not the best formula and try to make half of the team or more fit into roles that they're less ideally suited.

Maybe NZ is better with KW in t20, maybe it isn't. But just cos Australia don't play Steve Smith is no reason to be decisive of KW. They're different players. In different teams. With differing talent pools.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:00 pm

And as for Doull's comment that:

"[The coach] probably needs to have played the [T20] game to understand it a bit better. The Northern Knights [winners of this season's Super Smash] had Gareth Hopkins solely as their T20 coach and he had played until recently. The rest of the coaches around the country are a bit older, out of touch with T20."


one might accordingly question Doull's authority to commentate on T20.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/ ... t20-set-up

Hesson got NZ past India in India and Australia against the bookies expectations in the last World t20. To suggest such a feat suggests that he is out of touch with Wt20 needs further support.

Now we can almost all agree that Kitchen over Chapman seemed a poor call to most, but many commentators said the same of CDG in tests which was proven erroneous.

Hess is allowed to get a few wrong after getting so many right imo. He doesn't need to be sacked from t20 coaching just yet.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:56 pm

Simon Doull sometimes pontificates like he is Sir Hadlee.

Doull was a superb bowler on wickets aiding swing, on other wickets he was average.

He is trying to be an expert on NZ cricket just like Sanjay Manjrekar criticizes the Indian team.

Sanjay Manjrekar too was an average batsman at best.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:55 pm

bolero wrote:Simon Doull sometimes pontificates like he is Sir Hadlee.

Doull was a superb bowler on wickets aiding swing, on other wickets he was average.

He is trying to be an expert on NZ cricket just like Sanjay Manjrekar criticizes the Indian team.

Sanjay Manjrekar too was an average batsman at best.


I care less about Doull's playing credentials to commentate than I do his reasoning of opinions and overt lack of knowledge about how NZ players are performing. It would appear that these days Doull these days has far better insight into Indian players and the IPL, than he does NZ's own players, both international and domestic. That's fine, but when he wants to use his authority to say that a NZ coach should step down, he should provide good reasons for it, and it should be noted how informed, or lack thereof, that Doull is with regards NZ playing talent of late.

He isn't suggesting specific player solutions as such, he is just pointing out issues with KW's form and saying "sack the coach" he needs more time off and didn't play t20 himself so he is out of touch, and "sack the test players from t20" bar Boult, CDG and Santner.

Styris, also got CDG wrong in tests, but still maintains a very good knowledge about NZ players and performances. Mills and Adams are excellent. It is little coincidence that these guys did a lot of work on domestic commentary when Doull was presumably playing golf or doing something more to his liking.

Richardson, Doull and even Smith, are very light on domestic player knowledge. Sure they played cricket at the highest level, and get it, but they do not actively appear to follow who is performing domestically. It is that simple. NZ domestic cricket appears below their pay grade these days, which is also fine, as long as they aint talking about wholesale changes to the NZ team and not providing suggested solutions. But Doull is.

I wouldn't criticise Harsha Bhogle for not having been a test player, nor Mark Nicholas, and nor do I criticise Doull for not having been a t20 player as such, but I do criticise Doull for pointing out issues without solutions bar sacking coaches for no good reason and half the team with no replacements suggested.

Simon Doull commentary is rarely as enjoyable for me as it should be as I find him to be way off point too often, whether NZ is winning or losing. At least Smithy and RIgor are aware that they're not following domestic cricket and base their opinions accordingly. All Doull is offering Anton Devecich, best all round player in domestic t20 but regular international failure thus far, Tim Seifert who scored a few good big innings, but last week he was enamoured with Glenn Philips as a keeper, and Mark Chapman who the coach has already said is in the mix. THese are three very safe suggested alternative players, they are on more or less all fans lips. He would drop KW, Taylor and Southee.

But guess what Doull, bringing in Devecich, you have just brought in a 3rd spinner with Sodhi and Santner??? Now that may work in Hamilton where many spin friendly pitches are produced, Devecich's domestic home ground, but not all round NZ it won't. He says drop Southee, but offers no suggested replacement. Maybe Chapman can bowl some overs as 4th spinner? Southee isn't my favourite player neither, but the last t20 game NZ won, he took 3/13 off 4 overs.

To me it smacks of knee jerk commentary where he hasn't even thought of the XI he would actually typically play.

I believe if Chapman and Devecich are brought in, one of Sodhi or Santner should be dropped. 4 (or even 3 if Chapman is deemed a pure bat) spin options outside of the sub continent is excessive. Oh and Chapman bats 3 domestically, Seifert, Devecich, Munro and Guptill all going to open Doull? I mean he wouldn't play KW anywhere bar opener, so obviously he thinks the batting order matters.

NZ may well need some fresh faces, and these guys may well be some of the players to try out, but we don't need to sack the coach for not rushing to putting a whole heap of unproven domestic players, into unfamiliar batting orders, and calling it a top order, after so many wins at home for a few losses. Doull ought to be further aware of the selection dillemmas to team balance, rather than just saying pick the best domestic bats and drop Southee to make room for them.

I like form players myself, but at the very least work out a playing XI that makes some sense.

Seifert for Blundell is a fairly safe call despite Seifert regularly opening. Chapman for Bruce or Taylor is easy enough. Even for KW from a playing xi point of view. Devecich for KW and Southee - well less so.

Now if Doull's concern is say about Hess giving senior player and any possible favourtism for t20i due to match payments, ipl and t20 league riches opportunities or otherwise, and sacked accordingly from t20 to maintain a separation of selection process, he should be brave enough to suggest it and it can be debated. But even then - KW went for decent money at the ipl so Hess isn't the only coach who thinks he has utility in t20.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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