Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:43 pm

Well as only he can, Colin Munro takes two top order wickets for 24 runs, against Otago at University Oval, then as if to make a point, blasts a century off 80 balls including 6 6's.

Colin Munro is now averaging 96.2 this season with the bat with 4 centuries.

He is averaging 17.2 with the ball (albeit only 5 wickets).

He is still nowhere near making the test team, which is in Hamilton with Taylor ruled out. While I agree with Hesson that Munro is no replacement for Taylor, or batting in the top 4 or 5 even, surely if Santner, CDG and Neesham aren't scoring the desired runs there could be a place for him found at 6 or 7.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:30 am

Trent Boult has been ruled out of the deciding test. While this would typically be a dark day for a NZC fan, Lockie Ferguson has also been injured meaning..

SCOTT KUGGELEIJN has been called into the squad as cover. Now - his superior batting has to be a factor when selecting the team meaning he could quite possibly leap frog over Matt Henry and play in the test match, or even play alongside Henry especially if Southee is injured.

I'm very happy with this decision by the selectors. Its bold but I believe the right move. Scott's time to appear in national colours is sooner and not later. I'm incredibly happy for Scott after all his off field dramas. I wish him a debut, and a match winning performance.

[edit]It appears both Boult and Southee are injured, which means Kuggelijn's chances of playing, given his batting prowess, are very high.

Personally I wouldn't play Henry, and would give the new ball to Kuggelien and CDG, with Wagner as the third seamer, and play both spinners. This would strengthen the batting. From the assembled squad and turning pitch in mind - I would pick something like:

1 Latham
2 Raval
3 KW
4 Broom
5 Nicchols
6 Watling
7 Kuggelijn
8 CDG
9 Santner
10 Patel
11 Wagner

However I expect that the selectors will pick something more like

1 Latham
2 Raval
3 KW
4 Broom
5 Nicholls
6 Neesham/CDG
7 Watling
8 Santner
9 Patel
10 Henry
11 Wagner

I suspect the selectors will fear a public backlash of not picking Henry ahead of Kuggelijn and CDG if the match is lost or not won and that this will influence their decision making, or they will continue to be overly conservative to change. I hope not. The commentators did not like CDG opening the bowling (albeit successfully) and I doubt that they'd like a debutant opening the bowling with CDG even more so. If CDG gets wickets opening the bowling, I couldn't care less that he bowls at 120km/h than 140km/h. Its when the seam is most pronounced for a nibble bowler to get nibble. Wagner is a reverse swing exponent. It actually makes sense when there are no talented natural swing exponents available, furthermore, the team needs more runs. CDG outplayed Henry in their last test together in November where he scored vital runs and took 2 wickets to Henry's one wicket. A match NZ won. Kug's regularly scores runs. And the NZ commentators have suggested even more ridiculous team selections themselves of late. Henry - averaging over 50 with the ball in tests, over 200 in NZ, has been disappointing so far to say the least.

(Edit - CDG plays ahead of Neesham, no Kuggeleijn as Henry plays with Wagner and 2 spinners).
Last edited by Paddles on Sun May 28, 2017 3:19 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:20 am

Why Watling should bat higher than 7:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/m ... 19995.html
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Misty » Fri Mar 24, 2017 11:27 am

Paddles wrote:Why Watling should bat higher than 7:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/m ... 19995.html

Wailing is number 7 specialist in test, only at Leeds test, he scored fantastic 100 while bats at 6, once he hits 100 while bats at 8 but I still not sure of his 89 runs innings vs WI @what number.presently he should bats at higher than Neesham.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Misty » Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:35 pm

Kuggilijin?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:47 am

Now the 2 great modern teams had their wicket keepers bat at 7. Jeff Dujon and Adam Gilchrist. But Gilchrist was batting after Hussey at 6. Dujon after batsmen like Logie and batting allrounders like Hooper at worst, still a better bat than Dujon himself.

When Aus played 5 bowlers, Gilchrist batted 6. Flower batted in the top order. Sanga batted higher than 7 as did Tililiratne often. If NZ continues to pick allrounders who are not better batsmen than Watling, there is no point to Watling bat 7. He bats slower than Gilchrist (or De Kock after 6 specialist bats). Watlings value is occupation and accumulation. Being stuck with the tail too often does not benefit the NZ as much as him batting with batsmen more often would.
Last edited by Paddles on Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:59 pm

Paddles, it won't let me reply to your pm. But in answer to your question I have no idea. He just disappeared some time back

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:43 am

I am overall a Mike Hesson fan. While I criticize his Neesham and Anderson batting at 6 in the test team, they're both gone for now, and his Patel selection in ODI has upset me to the point of nearly losing faith, and I question Nicholls continued selection, I thought Raval took far too long to be given a shot, I thought Guptill was given a shot for too long, and there is a long list of cries for Munro to be given a chance in tests.

One thing fans and critics don't do enough is praise the brave and seemingly oddball selections that come up trumps.

His selection of CDG in the test team, in the face of question and subsequent criticism, has been brilliant. Well done.

While the team sorely misses Shane Bond as the bowling coach, Hesson's performances with the teams of Taylor, McCullum and now KW are keeping NZ cricket at a more than respectable international level for a long period of time now.

May NZC draw the series with Safrica tomorrow, and enjoy their break after.

I hope Hesson sorts out the mess that the ODI team is in during the Champions trophy, but even if he doesn't, the big one and most important thing is he gets the team right for the 2019 World Cup like he did last time. I see that NZ's home calendar next summer is far more ODI focussed with only 2 tests v England and 3 early tests vs the West Indies. Clearly the build up for the World Cup will start then if this Champions Trophy team underperforms.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Tue Mar 28, 2017 1:06 pm

It always used to surprise me that New Zealand's record for most Test centuries, held by Crowe and now Williamson jointly, is only 17. They've played 422 Tests, more than Pakistan, South Africa and Sri Lanka, yet fall significantly behind all those teams bar Sri Lanka in terms of Test centuries scored. They only clear Sri Lanka by 31 hundreds.

(Interestingly they outscore South Africa, Sri Lanka and Pakistan in terms of number of ducks scored!)

NZ also average 27.06 per man with the bat, which is the only average under 30 for all Test nations bar Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

I know that New Zealand has been in the weaker half of Test nations in the past, but I would never say they have ever been weaker than at least middle-of-the-pack. In Haldee, Vettori, Cairns, Southee, Bond and Boult they've had fine bowlers, and their highest run-getters makes a pretty talented list: Fleming, McCullum, Taylor, Crowe, Wright, Williamson, added to which could be the names of Ryder, Reid, Glenn Turner, Richardson.

There would be Kiwi players in the Best XI of the Decade teams in the 1970s and 1980s, I'd wager.

Are they often punching about their weight and not reflecting it in the statistics then? I for one would fancy it being an even game if England, Sri Lanka or Pakistan were to tour New Zealand right now.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:03 pm

SL and Pak lost 2-0 in last two yest series touring NZ.Eng drew 1-1 in Eng in 2015. Turner's politics and Crowe's knee laid the foundation for so few big centurions on that list. Flemming's non conversions is just a mystery to all.
NZ pitches oft resemble the tricky green ones in England meaning lower scores in NZ. But the batsmen have disapointed on flat wickets to, and not realised their talent to big scores, far too often. Australians often claim this is a lack of mental toughness. And then some like Rutherford snr and Sinclair have been our versions of Ramprakash and Hick.

Hadlee (12th), Cairns (11th), Vettori (8th), Reid (10) and even Oram (32) would be high on our wicket takers and run makers list. Far more so than most countries. Vettori was our best test batsman for a period between Flemming retiring and Taylor hitting top gear. James Franklin and Nash may pop up higher than expected as well in their shorter careers. * Its worse than even I thought, http://stats.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?class=1;id=5;type=team - Southee (39), and Lance Cairns (50) (at time of writing) are on the list averaging a whopping 16. I tell you it isn't easy being a NZC fan, much easier to support the All Blacks. Its been 25 years since we had an opening combo of note, and Trevor Franklin only averaged 23 with John Wright. Edgar retired over 30 years ago. We've been blessed that McCullum, Taylor and Williamson, with Watling's support mean that there have been 4 Top 20 scorers in the current side of late. Latham is climbing up the list - but he has been bullying Asian teams, not Australia, England nor South Africa. Think he may even be lean against India.10 of NZ's top 50 run scorers were arguably making the side on their bowling, incl Thomson but not Coney, Astle or Styris. Then when wicket keepers are factored, Smith, Pararore, Watling, McCullum, Wadsworth, the historic weakness of NZ batting becomes all too apparent. Compare Australia where Warne (35) is the only bowler appearing supported by allrounders Miller and Benaud in 50th.

Even now Nicholls would not be near any top 6 cricket side but NZ but for quotas in Safrica. Nor would Broom really, but he had a good FC season recently.

Our FC scene is getting stronger, helped by Safrican migrants giving more depth and talent at all levels. We're a bit like an England early 1990s team with our born in SA and Zimbabwe flavour. Some are comming here as school kids, like Munro and Watling, some as school graduates looking to play like Chad Bowes (SA U19 captain yet to be qualify for NZ), some like Wagner and previously Elliot are former SA FC pros looking for opportunities elsewhere.

We dont have domestic cricket on pay tv except t20, and we're not ideal on infrastructure but there is a top team depth developing reminiscent of the 1980s NZ team. Which lends support that when FC is strong, the national team is okay. In the domestic comp, bowlers Ferguson, Milne, Bennett and even Kuggelijn prepare our batsmen for the faster international bowlers. There's plenty of swing bowlers in NZ, as well as nibblers. The amount of NZ seamers in the IPL is indicative that there is a quite a bit of seam bowling talent in NZ at present, albeit no freakish standouts like Shane Bond or RJ Hadlee. There's plenty of solid to good, but just not very good to great, spin around in NZ of all types, with Sodhi, Astle, Nethula all leggies, and the development of A Patel, return of J Patel, and more. This is all good for preparing and assessing which batsmen are likely to do well in the top level, and ensure strong A teams are selected.

Some guys have had to fight their way in the hard way, like Jeet Raval, while the likes of Nicholls and Jamie How have inexplicably been gift wrapped international opportunities. But Tom Bruce(whites and coloureds), Will Young (FC), and hopefully next season Glenn Philips and Mark Chapman (ODI), are putting consistent runs in domestic cricket and will put pressure on the weakest links; Broom and Nicholls (all), and Ronchi in the ODI team.

Then there is the most curious case of all, Colin Munro. Possibly unfairly dropped from the ODI team where he was batting quite low in the order after a couple of failures (less than Latham), he was replaced by Broom who then also failed. And now - with another huge season of plundering runs by blasting 6's in red ball cricket, his career average and one test played is standing out in the statistical almanacs like a sore thumb. While he could be the 6th batsman to bowl a bit in a play 6 batsman test team, the issue is whether if Santner/Astle bat at 6 and CDG bats at 8 whether Munro is good enough to bat 5 and usurp Nicholls. Well, I think beating Nicholls is easy, but Tom Bruce and many more have their eyes on that 5 spot.

It would be a lot easier if he was either better at List A 50 over cricket and pressed his test credentials from there, and didn't dominate T20 and red ball so much more than he does in the 50 over game. But there are strong doubts as to his suitability for tests in his Maxwell, Afridi type approach, that is averaging big runs at FC.
Last edited by Paddles on Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:02 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:46 pm

Also - BoyCaught - I suspect Sri Lanka had a purple patch from Murali bowling with A De SIlva (02) and Jaysuriya (07) through to Sanga (15) and Jayawardene (14) with Dilshan, Attapatu, Samarewa, Tilikiratne that, like the Windies of 1980's - they'll not get back up to the heights of anytime soon.

While I foresee SL being a force at home to non spinning countries in the mean time, at least while Herath is bowling well, I see their tours to England, Aus, SA and NZ becoming regular debacles. Given their late introduction into cricket, 1980's, most of their history, or a long period of it, is their purple patch that coincided with a batting line up that was freakishly good, and def not the norm for their nation, or even some historically stronger cricket nations.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:24 am

Wow. The New Zealand summer just wrapped up. The positive developments from the summer, according to the leading sky tv commentators, the rise in tests of Matt Henry and Jeet Raval.

Totally agree on Raval. But this is the same Jeet Raval that the Sky TV team didn't demand Raval last year. Will Young, or Rutherford, or Brownlie, whoever I think was there preferred support to Guptill and Latham. The silence on Raval was deafening. But it is hard to go past and ignore a NZ opening batsman averaging 44.8 in their first home summer, where most the runs were scored against Pakistan and South Africa.

Matt Henry was ranked 5th last year in ODI and was left out of the team this year at 7th and 8th, to lower ranked Ferguson and Southee. No doubt this took its toll in disapointing Matt Henry. I even thought he would get more chances in ODI and expected more rotation of Fergusson, Boult and Southee than what occurred. But lets be honest, he played 4 tests in 2016/17, took 12 wickets at 36.25. Better than his career average of 48.5. But is this really the development of the test summer?

This smacks to me of the bias, that has been explicitly commentated on against CDG. Largely blamed for the 2nd test loss, which was rather difficult because he was undeniably the best bowler on display there of all the Kiwi bowlers, criticized for opening the bowling was also difficult when he took early breakthroughs, it was decided that he needed to bat better (at number 8).

So, to the next game, again he bowled very well, getting Elgar out with the new ball for a mere 5 runs in both innings new ball spells, CDG bangs out his first test 50, the first by NZ number 8 in a while. He now averages 25.75 with the bat and 25.56 with the ball for 16 wickets. Any cricketer, who averages more with the bat than they do with the ball, in their first season, especially one asked to open the bowling in 2 of the tests, is a pretty damn good development. The only commentator in CDG's corner is Craig Cumming, which in terms of media weight, is the one I'd least want backing me.

Lets be honest here, the issue to the bias is that CDG bowls between 120 and 130km/h and not 132-138. But so does Philander?! He's taking wickets against South Africa and Pakistan. To be honest, I think CDG has raised far more of a selection headache than Matt Henry could remotely dream to have.

These are the same commentators estatic with Henry Nichols scoring a small debut ton, to have played 8 games this year and average 35.09 leading Smith to say his place is assured in the team for a long time coming. Despite averaging, 19 vs Aus, 12.5 v India, 23 v Pakistan, 16.5 v Zimbabwe, respectable 40 v SA off the ton and a bullying 77.5 v Bangladesh.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:11 am

Cricket Awards 2017

Test Batsman - Kane Williamson
Test bowler - Neil Wagner
Test player - Neil Wagner
T20 player - Kane Williamson
ODI player - Martin Guptill
Supreme Award - RJ Hadlee

Two comments I have to make there. For some inexplicable reason - the T20 period of judging was chosen to eliminate the World T20 - and was chosen only from the 4 home t20 games. I found this rather ridiculous. Ish Sodhi and Mitchell Santner were outstanding in India last year, and were good enough in the home season as well. I guess it would have been awkward to give it to Sodhi when "dropped" from the T20 side (he really is the second choice spinner to Santner), and awkward to give it to Santner when Sodhi had outbowled him overall. So in the consistency of things being awkward, KW accepted the T20 award and when interviewed said how test cricket is the international pinnacle and wants more tests and that t20 is a good domestic format but not needed to saturate the international game, besides the women's t20 captain, who do not get to play 4 or 5 day games at all, beat Aus in a t20 series as the year highlight, and who rely on the WBBL in Australia to continue the growth and professionalism of women's cricket.

All rather awkward. Lets make it even more awkward - NZ is the #1 ranked T20 team in the world and is captained by KW.

The biggest surprise was Neil Wagner being given test player of the year. 52 wickets at 24 over 13 tests is a good effort and his greater appreciation by NZC was demonstrated for all to see when Tim Southee was dropped ahead of him, despite being the vice captain.

The question that will now raise its head as KW goes past MD Crowe's legacy, what does he have to do to usurp RJ Hadlee as NZ's greatest cricketer? Does he need the runs world record to do so? Or can he as a captain of world cup winning team, or a #1 ranked test team, or any host of achievements not achieved by Hadlee be sufficient?
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Misty » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:34 am

How about Award to RAVAL playing better vs fast bowling than other NZ front line batsman in test? 3 test 256 with 3 fifties @64.00

Former nz captain, Rabone in RSA, scored 107 as opener way back in 1953.No nz opener ever scores 100 vs proteas in RSA or in nz,only in last test, 3 NZ's scores 50 or more in the same test innings.Do you know how many test nZ ever plays in test cricket?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Misty » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:43 am

WAGNER is under rated by ICC : 52 test wickets in 13 test good but MAHARAJ too good at 19.23 with 15 test wickets in his first tour outside SOA in 3 test.

What is next for NZ? Test?ODI? T20?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:12 am

Tour of Ireland and Champions trophy. There are no proper winter tours for NZ this year or next year.

KW easily outclassed Raval for the test season Misty. He's back up to 2nd in the world next icc rankings, he will likely slide back down due to a lack of mmatches. Over 1000 test runs at close to 60, another consistent year for KW.

If Maharaj wants to and does end up playing for NZ - he will qualify for NZC awards.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:54 am

Colin Munro - that man in white clothing giving the NZ selectors an endless headache, has in the final round of FC cricket further upped his challenge to the selectors. NZ has no tests till late November. There is not winter tour after that.

Colin, is now over 30 years of age, and very much a whacker of the ball. He has shown glimpses of orthodox technique and composure in the World T20 last year on brutally turning cobra pits of pitches, and in a ODI match in Australia earlier in the year. Between all the switch hitting and pulling accross the line, Colin plays a lot of orthodox cricket shots, but at a high tempo at the risk of composure? He would be out caught in the ring field far more than most batsmen, especially for scores under 20 or 30. When he's very new to the crase, he can get out bowled or lbw playing with the straight bat down the ground, just down the wrong line altogether of the delivery.

But Colin, again this year, has brutally dominated FC cricket. He averaged 85 runs with the bat. But we all know he;s scoring a lot of runs - that isn't the point of this post. When Colin started his upsurge to getting back into the NZ team, a component that got him there to begin with, in tests anyway, was his medium pace bowling. Colin after being dropped, went and focussed on his batting and left his bowling to lapse. Then when he made the t20 team, he started to increase his FC bowling again in the pursuit of more international honours in formats.

This last round, Colin Munro, opened the bowling for FC team Auckland in both innings, in a must win game for the province. He took no wickets in his new ball spells. But overall - Colin Munro managed to jag 5 middle to top order wickets in 3/22 off 17 and 2/51 off 16.5 for 11 wickets at 17 for the summer to go with his 685 runs at 85 (and 135 SR - yes 135 SR for FC cricket). The man is just so tenacious. Jimmy Neesham and Corey Anderson basically have no rational reason being selected ahead of him in tests from now on. Simple as that.

Scott Kuggeliejn, Todd Astle and Colin Munro are letting the incumbent batsmen, all rounders and the bowlers know not to slide; as CDG goes from strength to strength within the team.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:14 am

The most exciting, and for me anticipated, NZ ODI team has been announced, a side containing no IPL players to play in a warm up series in Ireland against the hosts and Bangladesh.

Many of the anticipated selections have occurred. Scott Kuggeliejn will be touring. Colin Munro has been given a chance. George Worker too has been given an opportunity.

But some have not, for no explicable reason - Tom Bruce, has been omitted. But I wrote here that I doubted that he would make his debut in ODI cricket in Britain this year. Tom Bruce averages 35 striking at 124. This summer he averaged 37 striking at 110. These are good numbers from someone who already averages mid 30's in T20i. Personally, I think his non-selection is the result of overly conservative selections favouring Broom, Niccholls, non-keeping Latham, as well as the recent form of Worker and Munro. But Nicholls did put out a higher domestic average this season albeit at lower sr. Personally, I see more opportunity and use for the dynamism of Tom Bruce than Nichols or Broom, but I am eager to see how far Worker has developed his game from when he last donned the black shirt.

Luke Ronchi has also been picked. This shows that the kiwi selectors are DESPERATE. He will be 36 years of age when the tour starts, that means 38 for the next world cup. Age is less of concern to me than this, he hasn't been in t20i or ODI form since before the World Cup in early 2015. Latham will not be keeping as there are beliefs, (in my opinion erroneous) that his poor batting form was caused by him keeping. Personally I think the two just coincided. But regardless of who plays, there is a keeper not making runs.

This is surprising because there is a young 20 year old by the name of Glen Phillips, who is making runs in pyjama clothing. Averaging over 40 in domestic t20 and over 30 in domestic odi at a very healthy strike rate and an enjoyment of making centuries when set.

So, Bruce and Phillips are the contentious omissions. Ronchi and Broom the very lucky inclusions. Latham and Nicholls are getting by on reputation. And Munro is still ahead of Bruce in the pecking order as he and Worker keep putting up runs when batting. Bruce appears to have hurt himself by averaging a mere 33 to the finish of the FC season.

So where to pay attention?

Worker, Munro, and Scott Kugeliejn are those in the running to force their way back or in Scott's case into the black caps side. Put simply, if Neesham or Broom or Nicholls (unless keeping as well) find themselves in the best xi, the team looks weak to me. One or two of these guys have to step up and overtake them in the pecking order.

The ODI side is still a mess with Latham not keeping. Ronchi with no runs being selected. And Corey Anderson not bowling (thus not likely to be selected). If Guptil is injured come the Champions Trophy, forget about NZ's taking home a 2nd trophy, unless one of the aforementioned 3 names becomes a global cricketing sensation support KW and Taylor.

There are 3 spinners in the squad as the Patel, Santner, and Sodhi merry go round is set to continue.

New Zealand squad for Ireland tri-series
Tom Latham (capt), Hamish Bennett, Neil Broom, Scott Kuggeleijn, Colin Munro, James Neesham, Henry Nicholls, Jeetan Patel*, Seth Rance, Luke Ronchi, Mitchell Santner, Ish Sodhi, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner, George Worker

*Patel will join the squad for the fourth ODI
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:47 am

The shambles that is the New Zealand ODI team was announced today. Corey Anderson has been picked as he apparently has shown his bowling ability post injury. 3 overs and 1 over in ipl matches were enough to convince Hesson that he is bowling fit. Perhaps Hess is more hopeful. A bowling Corey is critical to team balance.

The squad is very light on batting to say the least.

Kane Williamson,
Martin Guptill,
Ross Taylor

are the only established odi batsmen picked.

Neil Broom is also in the squad despite failing against Australia and South Africa.

They will bat 2 to 4. Sharing the opening duties will be Luke Ronchi, who hasn't been in form since before the 2015 WC or Tom Latham who bats a bit slow in the ODI format and has been horrifically out of form in 2016/17.

If Broom does not at at 5, the middle order from 5 down then will comprise of allrounders:

there is Jimmy "I don't want to bowl" Neesham;
Corey "I'm too injured to bowl" Anderson;
Mitchell "what am I doing this high up in the batting order" Santner; and
Colin "this whole 6 months is a dream come true" de Grandhomme.

So, everyone in the NZ side will be a bowling option from 5 down, or 6 down if Broom players. 3 established specialist batsmen only for this tournament.

On top of that; there will be 3 bowlers picked from;

Mitch, Milne, Tim, Trent, Jeetan, with Matt Henry squeezed out due to being benched in IPL matches and some E/R issues.

so the likely team will be:

1 Latham/Ronchi (wk)
2 Guptill
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Broom/Neesham *
6 Anderson/Neesham
7 CDG / Neesham
8 Santner
9 Patel/Milne/Mitch
10 Southee/Mitch/Milne
11 Boult

Numbers 1 and 5 are biggest areas of concern. If Anderson is bowling, that middle order of him and CDG has a lot to be liked about it. Santner and Milne are no slouches with the bat, and McClenahan has definitely been improving on his batting. In fact, given the dire options at 1, NZ to potentially use a bowler as a pinch hitting opener ought not to be ruled out with Southee and McClenahan having done similar roles for domestic teams in England and India respectively.

If the pitches have some life, there is a lot to like about NZ's bowling attack. If they're flat, if Anderson and Mitch are bowling, with Milne, NZ have some bang it in type bowling options as well.

So while its great to see Corey back, I just hope he's fit. Broom and Neesham area concern at 5, I wish both well and hopefully some fast 100's are scored by either of them. But neither are in Grant Elliot's class just yet.

Patel for Sodhi I think is wrong. I've said enough on that in previous posts. Hopefully he doesn't play much as I think Milne/Mitch's batting could be vital to NZ's chances in high scoring slogathons going down to the wire if England produces high scoring wickets again. CDG is fairly green in this format, but he provides a legitimate bowling threat on juicy pitches and no boundary in the world is too big for him. There is a lot of talent there that continues to be realised so hopefully he continues his ascendancy in world cricket.

* Hesson has confirmed that he wants Broom to play and only 2 of three allrounders in Corey, Neesh and CDG meaning Corey has to be a bowling option to play.

Hesson also confirmed that Munro's future lies at 6 as a bowling option and not at 5 where Broom or Nicholls are preferred for working the ball around (in odi formats and presumably tests as well). This confirms my previous speculation that Munro was increasing his bowling at domestic levels for international selection. This is good to see communication from a coach to a player as to where their future lies. It is good to see Munro trying to grab that opportunity.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby raja » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:45 am

CDG was completely deceived by Chahal yesterday.
I don't want to read too much into this - but this was the first time I was seeing him batting.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:13 am

raja wrote:CDG was completely deceived by Chahal yesterday.
I don't want to read too much into this - but this was the first time I was seeing him batting.


Deceived? Maybe. Beaten definitely. The ball turned sharply as he charged second ball.

This ipl will be great for him as a novice to Asian spin conditions. But the champions league is in England.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue May 16, 2017 1:55 am

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ireland-tri-series-2017/engine/match/1033363.html

Scot Kuggeleijn has started his NZ Odi career with an absolute roar.

11 of 6 balls batting at 8 - and then 3 wickets for 41 off 9, including 2 at the start of the innings and a partnership breaker later.

George Worker's 50 was incredibly slow in the circumstances, but Ronchi found a few runs against what must be said was some generous bowling in Ireland's opening spell.

Broom played with more impetus and innovation which will boost his confidence. The question that remains is whether he is able to successfully replicate and execute his innovation against a higher quality bowling attack than Ireland's offering.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed May 17, 2017 4:35 am

Rumours in the press are that Ronchi only needs one more significant innings to nail the opener and wicket keeper job for the Champions Trophy. NZ are anticipating or hoping for flat wickets with no swing or seam for this strategy.

Further surprises, it is anticipated that if the wickets are flat, NZ will have a line up like this:

1 Ronchi
2 Guptil
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Broom/Anderson
6 Neesham/Anderson
7 CDG/Anderson
8 Santner
9 Milne (much better bat than Patel)
10 Patel
11 Boult

That is 2 spinners, 2 fast bowler, and 2 or 3 allrounders to bowl out.

Milne ahead of Southee and McClenahan may surprise some people, but Milne was favored ahead both of them when the WT20 commenced in India, so Hesson's fondness of Milne's talent is not novel to many fans neither.

The problem batting positions remain Ronchi's search for consistency, whoever bats at 5 has no form there, and less crucially but noticeably - #8 looks very lean for batting runs as well. I like that the team has a plan. I like that the ream is so confident in its squad (that is if seam or swing are played NZ can roll out Southee and Boult with CDG rising in prominence supported by Milne) that they are prepared to announce their plans of slogging in the first 10 and smothering with spin in the field.

But I still feel the team is sternly light on batting depth, which causes too much reliance on the Big 3, and I still feel that this is being hindered no end in Anderson not bowling a full 10 overs at his former quality. Neesham - while having batted some useful knocks, is not multi -dimensional and opposition may suss his batting game out, and his bowling has been a cause for concern for a long time now. Long story short, this is not as good or as in form as the 2015 WC team was heading into the tournament. This is a different Ronchi, a different Anderson and no Grant Elliot (with Broom possibly replacing Grant or McCullum alternatively). That said, I'd back KW or Guptill on any given day to play an innings that is spectacular.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed May 17, 2017 4:51 am

I would play Broom at 5 if he continues to bat aggressively against Ireland and Bangladesh. And I would play 2 of Anderson, CDG and Neesham with Neesham running the drinks for me. To be honest, CDG would be written in ink as the best bowler, and Anderson while typically better than Neesham, would have to prove himself to be a better option than Jimmy at present. So I'd give Corey first crack - esp due to his death and powerplay bowling potential.

I just think 3 of Anderson, Neesham and CDG is far too samey in the batting. That batsmanship with innovation and 2 sluggers is better than 3 sluggers, and I'm a slugger fan. I'm not a Neil Broom fan typically, but the way I saw him bat against Ireland was not typical Neil Broom.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Wed May 17, 2017 11:47 am

Kerjuggen or what have you better adopt a more iPhone keypad friendly nickname to further his cricket career's social media consumption.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed May 17, 2017 12:20 pm

Boycs wrote:Kerjuggen or what have you better adopt a more iPhone keypad friendly nickname to further his cricket career's social media consumption.


That or like Schwarzenegger - he gets added to the dictionary.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu May 18, 2017 4:13 am

So NZ have beaten Bangladesh thanks largely to the combined bowling efforts of spinners Sodhi and Santner with Bangladesh having few ideas to the extra pace and bounce of Bennett, as well as a combined effort with the bat which saw Ronchi get a breezy 27, Latham a 50, Broom another significant score of 48, and a finishing 50 from Jimmy Neesham.

So -a good win, and it is too late to include Sodhi in the ICC CT team. But it does leave headaches:

Broom is making a case to bat at 5. Neesham is making a case to bat at 6. Neesham is further demonstrating with an ER of 7.55 that his bowling is just not good enough to be a 5th option, but that his batting is good enough to bat 6.

So, my preference has always been Anderson over Neesham on potential. But as we head into the ICC CT, Anderson just isn't playing at his potential post injury with ordinary bowling bowling in the IPL coupled with ordinary batting despite a single MOTM performance.

I'm sure Hess is already contemplating a shootout between the 2 players in an upcomming match against Ireland, and I repeat the options are:

5 Broom
6 Neesham/Anderson
7 CDG

or

5 Anderson
6 Neesham (this leaves just 1 solitary List A 100 between batsmen 5 and 6)
7 CDG
*

KW has not been asked to bowl in the IPL, but he is an option for a few overs, which gives Neesham and Broom a better chance of playing.

Should Latham hit more runs in this series, this will place pressure on the Ronchi opening experiment. All of which is giving this series interest value to NZC fans.

*Surprisngly CDG was left out altogether and the results of Broom, Neesham and Anderson were disappointing for all.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed May 24, 2017 3:31 am

NZ heads into the CT with an unsettled team, but some interesting depth options. Long time an ODI world Top Ten bowler, Matt Henry, has not at any time in his career been a top XI player. His inability to prove his death bowling value remains a blight on a player who has produced aggressive and successful bowling spells against the likes of Australia to give NZ great victories.

Hamish Bennett, whose career has been plagued by injuries, has very impressive career stats, with Asian teams particularly, but even Australian teams, struggling to get on top his pace and bounce without losing their wicket. While his action looks ungainly, his injuries gave rise to Mitch McClenahan to bang the ball in - at possibly a lower pace and accuracy than a fully fit Bennett offers. But McClenahan too has been struggling to ever be in the top XI.

Fergusson has emerged as a developing prospect - but a tonne of work needs to be done there before it is the finished product. Milne has re-emerged after yet another injury lay off, but while a fan and coach favourite, and possibly yet to offer more with the bat as he has a true batsmanship technique, he too is far from established.

Scott Kuggeleijn has pipped Bennett into the train-on squad. Scott has what none of the remaining fast bowlers in NZ have - 3 FC centuries averaging over 30. While it is essential to get the bowling group right, and win games with the ball, Scott's class with the bat will often give him the benefit of selection and truly help team balance and depth.

Trent Boult and Tim Southee, long the stars of the NZ team and automatic selections, are facing even more pressure to perform than ever before because of the glut of available talent.

To be fair, I think only Boult is the name written in ink for a best XI for the next whee while. While Southee may get preference in the CT to begin with, his performance is under close scrutiny and his place in the XI is by no means assured, as seen when he lost his test spot to CDG and Wagner.

There was likely going to come a time that McClenahan, Bennett and Milne were all fit at the same time, that Kuggeleijns off field drama's came to an end, Fergusson's development was set to continue and Henry, Southee and Boult were charging in.

What makes this more intriguing is that NZ has signaled that 2 spinners will play in CT matches, Patel and Santner, and it is likely that CDG and either Neesham or Anderson will also play for team balance. While Anderson is outbowling Neesh, albeit not in ten over spells as yet, Neesh is definitely outbatting Anderson of late, and given that its a 5th split or 6th bowling role, I think this will give Neesh the advantage for the CT, even if Hesson believes that Anderson has more potential; he sadly just doesn't have the form. While the All Round talents of players like Anderson and Neesham are to be admired, neither should be resting on their laurels; as neither player is doing enough in both roles to be assured of continued selection. Whereas CDG, despite his unpopularity with the media, is forming some impressive numbers proving his continued viability, despite appearances, as an international cricketer of great merit. Averaging 33.00 with the bat at 97.63 SR, which includes 100 average at 99 in his games this year against none other than Australia and South Africa, his 37/57 at 5.26 bowling record improved this year to the tune of 25.75 at 4.29! These numbers have flown under the radar for a number of reasons, he is yet to produce a match winning performance, and he seems to get his best results with the team as a whole loses. Even KKR fans may agree to this. What this promises is Neesham, Anderson, CDG and Munro in a fierce battle in the next two years, to be in the playing XI for the next world cup. And Todd Astle no doubt dreams of being in this role himself. Whatever 2 are named, must be able to bowl a minimum of 10 quality overs, and score significant runs swiftly.

This means that there is only room for 2 strike bowlers, with Southee, Milne and McClenahan all looking to partner Boult with the new ball (I'd actually give the new ball to CDG if Southee is not selected and Milne or McClenahan are).

There is one caveat to the above. Australia in this tournament could very well the first 4 prong pace attack not seen since Viv Richards captained the West Indies. With Cummins, Hazelwood, Starc and Pattinson (supported by John Hastings and possibly Stanlake on standby) - the return to outright bowling aggression in ODI, not containment with big hitting allrounders, if successful, could see more teams follow suit. While this may not be such a good idea for NZ with Santner and Sodhi both in such great form, its not as though NZ are unable to play 4 fast men themselves with Kuggeliejn as one of them, or even CDG opening the bowling with 3 or more quicks, as CDG batting at 7 Kuggelijn at 8 Milne at 9 is still providing a lot of depth. There could even be room for Santner, and 4 legitimate seamers, but either strategy would endanger the Corey Anderson and Jimmy Neesham type cricketer until they bat more consistently. Also, NZ would be wise to keep putting out the best eleven it can, and not follow the best formula if well short of it. Noone in NZ bowls a Mitchell Starc yorker consistently well at 150km/h (despite a few Lockie Fergguson highlights) and noone in NZ bowls a James Pattinson bang the batsmen back and then pitch up n swing at well over 140 clicks like Pattinson, and while CDG can bowl the nagging nibble of Hazelwood, he is doing it at 10 to 15 plus km/h slower and is shorter in stature than Josh Hazelwood. Milne is fast but friendly, Fergusson is fast but erratic, and Bennett is over 30 years of age when fast men typically start slowing their pace back down. But for me, having written NZ's chances down in the CT as we look for an opener keeper batsman; and a number 5 better than Broom, and an in form allrounder to bat at 6, with bits and pieces batting and bowling the clash of ideas between the old thinking brought back (Australia 4 quicks and 10 overs of batting allrounder/s) and the modern thinking well executed (South Africa with 2 or 3 bowling allrounders), this possible clash of theory* I find juicy.

I would love an ODI series of Safrica vs Australia this summer, but all we get is the Ashes.

*Australia will utilise 1 or 2 batting allrounders (Maxwell or Henriques/Stoinis to implement) with 4 pace bowlers whereas SA have Morris, Pretorious, Parnell and Phelekwayo who are bowling allrounders (with a specialist bat at 6 in Miller) expected to be able to bowl 10ea but Duminy is a bonus if playing or alteratively Berhadien is a possible failsafe. Parnel and Morris are genuine wicket taking threats but not quite Steyn, Rabada Morkel or Abbot ilk. Pretorious and Philekwayo are less of a threat.

England too with Stokes, Ali, Willey and Rasheed have a glut of allrounders and are light on specialist batting 4 as against SA's 5 plus de Kock. Australia have not signalled who is to bat 5 and 6 yet, but Maxwell and Henriques are possible - so is Head and Lynn playing as well tho.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun May 28, 2017 12:43 pm

I take no pleasure in watching the seemingly disintegration of Corey Anderson as a cricketer. From a tremendously talented cricketer, reliable for 10 overs in ODI and hard hitting in the middle order, he has been hammered with injuries that were no surprise for a player of his bulk. He tried to make his way as a specialist batsman but came up short, he has lost a tonne of weight, but just cannot get his bowling, nor more critically and noticably, his batting form back. In form, he was critical to the NZ team balance, now out of sorts, he just adds to the problems. I do hope he finds is form again, his talent is undoubted, but his recent performances have been consistently woeful.

Jimmy Neesham, another not good enough with the bat to be a specialist, is still unable to be relied on for 10 overs. If NZ play both, the team is weak in the middle order and in the bowling. Hesson likes spare bowlers, but the NZ batting is not good enough right now for that luxury, despite the Big 3 (Guptill, KW and Taylor).

Colin De Grandhomme does not solve the situation. Ideally he is a finisher of an innings, batting at around 8 would be ideal for him given his proficiency of boundary hitting but lack of batsmanship, especially against spin bowling, but he is yet to be proven as a 10 over option despite opening the bowling in tests. While I believe he can be used to do a role very well in ODI cricket if bowled out early, he is not a proven death bowling option.

Neil Broom as a batsman is great against weak teams, but often found short against the top teams, a bit like Tom Latham so far in this regard. Mitchell Santner, has been bowling great in ODI, but expecting him to provide regular runs and promote him in the batting order seems far too hopeful to be an effective solution presently.

So while what I have warning and predicting since earlier this year when Guptil and Taylor hundreds concealed the glaring problems with the NZ team from greater scrutiny, the holes are becoming apparent for all to see.

If NZ does not have the international quality fit and in form batting allrounders, do not play batting allrounders. NZ does have middle order batsmen like Tom Bruce, NZ does have bowling allrounders like Scott Kuggeliejn (fast-med) and Todd Astle (leg -spin). I'd be hesitant to drop Santner for Astle, because Santner, as a bowler, has been excellent.

NZ may well best be served to look at playing the 5 best batsman (Guptill, KW and Taylor plus 2 more), 1 best wk batsman, and the best bowlers where Scott Kuggelieijn, Colin De Grandhomme are possibly favoured to add more batting.

As staunch NZC fan, I don't want to watch Corey Anderson play as a figment of the player he was pre-injuries, and I don't want to watch Jimmy Neesham bowl. And its about time that Colin De Grandhomme is given a chance to bowl ten overs, to see if he fits into team balance. More batting, and Scott Kuggelieijn to play at 7, CDG at 8, Santner at 9, Boult and either Milne, Southee, Henry et al either gives 50 overs between them, or drop CDG as well. But CDG and Kuggeliejn at 7 and 8 after specialist batsmen, is a lot better to me than Neesham and Anderson at 6 and 7!

While I appreciate Neesham has been making some really good scores, if he isn't good enough to play as a specialist batsman, and is a horrid bowler, why on earth is he playing? Ditto for Anderson's batting at present.

It just makes no sense to me. I'm sure Tom Bruce and Scott Kuggeliejn might be asking themselves the same questions. In an ideal world, one day maybe Munro, Anderson or even Neesham are the best #6 bat in the country, and give KW and Hess that 6th bowling option that they seem so keen on, but right now, they're all comming up short, and Tom Bruce and Solia are making runs with the bat. While Broom and Nicholls at #5 are not.

NZ played 7 bowling options in this warm up game vs India and scored less than 200, despite Ronchi scoring over 60 opening the innings. The all rounders at present just are not scoring enough runs, especially when the top order fails, or in Neesham's case, are a total bowling liability. Think again please, Hesson. There is no 2015 vintage Anderson or Elliot* around. There is a Kuggeliejn to give a chance to, though. This batting deep philosophy of Neesham at 8 falls apart when Anderson is at 5, Santner is at 6 and CDG is at 7.

Its time to trial and develop Kuggeliejn. And its time to find and develop some middle order batsmen before the next World Cup, be they Solia, Phillips, Bruce, or whoever.

*Elliot actually only bowled 34.5 overs out of 16 matches in 2014/15.

Simon Doull just said during commentary that Latham will open in CT, and Ronchi is battling Broom for #5. It is time to take the rose tinted glasses of the 2015 WC off, NZC odi has gone well and truly backwards in both talent and strategy relative to top odi teams and its asking far too much of the Big 3 to score big and at a fast rate all the time.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue May 30, 2017 10:50 pm

NZ through KW and Guptil make easy work of warm up game agaisnt SL.

More promising was a 50 from Corey Anderson along with some steady bowling. CDG only bowled 2 overs.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:52 pm

I don't enjoy saying I told you so about NZ's middle order at the Champions Trophy, but I told you so, from Feb 26 if not earlier.

I really hope that Hesson and Larson now become aware of the problems with the NZ odu and seek to remedy.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:57 am

So effectively the knives are out on social media for Hesson and Larsen and the selections of numbers 5 to 8, and a little bit of Ronchi loathing still despite his score of 60 odd off 40 odd balls against Australia.

Unfortunately caught up in the knee-jerk is Mitchell Santner. It is not his fault that he has been continuously described as an all-rounder. If he was called a bowler, his bowling more than stacks up by international standards. He was a star at the World T20. While not a vast wicket a taker, as a containment bowler, he has been exceptional and he is averaging more than a wicket per match. That said, Ish Sodhi has been good too, and Todd Astle has far better claims to call himself an allrounder.

Neil Broom is right under the microscope and rightfully so. The England team don't rate him at all and it would appear with good reason. But suggested alternatives are just as bad, with calls for Nicholls and Worker even being uttered. Jimmy Neesham, is under fire as well, and while Corey got his golden arm back, this means little good for the team if he isn't scoring runs as McClenahan, Henry, Fergusson, Bennett or Kugeliejn could bowl these overs.

There is some demand to develop and trial new talent. I agree with this approach. It is time to do so, but I would not be putting efforts into Nicholls or Worker.

Bruce, Solia, Chapman, Kuggelijn, Astle, just off the top of my head, are people who should be tried soon to play 5 to 8 for NZ assuming a keeper opens.

One person said from the current team only Guptil, KW, Taylor, Milne, Boult and Santner remain, the latter with a development asterisk. Unfortunately, this person has a lot of merit to their argument, but Southee is by no means finished in ODI cricket for me just yet.

It must be hard for Hesson to have built a team over 2 years, that was nigh perfect and surprised the whole world with only one loss at the 2015 World Cup, and lead to teams like England adopting and copying their play style, to a lil more than 2 years later, be a much poorer team despite a lot of the same personnel. But unfortunately, that is what has happened. But the holes at 5 to 8 in the batting, or 4 to 8 if Ronchi is put back in the middle order, are just too big and wide to be filled over with Guptil, Taylor and KW big scores any more.

The cats out of the bag, as I have said for a while on here, the NZ odi team is in a shambles, despite some excellent bowlers and batsmen, except now everyone knows it. The sad irony is, NZ has what many lesser teams do not have, star batsmen like KW and Guptill, and excellent bowlers like Boult and Milne, Sodhi and Santner, it is missing the iron clad support players and an in form allrounder. Corey Anderson was selected in the 2015 WC team, that I fear may be the last ICC team that he is ever picked for.

Now, this is where it is very tricky for a selector and coach, because I believe that there is talent in the NZ domestic scene. As I said when Worker went to Ireland, I don't rate him but he had earned the chance. Tom Bruce certainly has earnt a chance at odi level. Kuggelijn has certainly earned more chances (maybe Bennett has too). And Solia and Chapman must be getting pretty damn close to earning their chances as well.

If we're not blessed with batting allrounders like Australia is (Henriques, Stoinis, Maxwell, Head, formerly Watson too), lets look to bowling allrounders like South Africa has (Pretorious, Morris, Parnell). There's more than one way to get to number one. What Sangakarra said when observing the England team (in regards to Butler, Hales and Roy ahead of Bairstow), I couldn't agree with more, its about forming your best possible team, not selecting the best people for each position. Those who deeply understand limited overs cricket will understand that positions are constructs, and their nature and role are influenced by their relationship to the whole team. The England bowling is not great, but their batting is fearsome and deep. So is South Africa's. Australia, less so in batting deep, but their bowling is fantastic. The right way for each team is influenced by the talent that they have at their disposal, not what worked previously or someone else is doing. This is how any limited overs team can be seemingly greater than the sum of its parts. Hales, Roy, Ali, Rashid, Willey, Plunkett, Wood, Ball et al are not likely ever to be recognised as great cricketers, but they have helped form the best English limited overs team since 1992. I don't think NZ has the talent to copy the current England model that is somewhat based on the NZ 2015 model. However, that said, if Hesson believes this is the model to follow then, Southee, Santner and Milne, ought to make way for Kuggeleijn, De Grandhomme and Astle with allrounders all the way to 10 with only Boult as a non-allrounder bowling. This means the tail compensates for soft middle order of Neesham and Anderson. But, despite being a de Kock short, maybe we can do something with the talent at our disposal more similar to the current South African blueprint. That is the 5 best batsmen in the country, best wicket keeper bat, best seamer, best spinner, then either 3 bowling allrounders, or 2 bowling allrounders and another ace seam bowler. See its flexible too!

But right now, the NZ team is trying a bits and pieces approach with no clear formulation in selection. And its vulnerable.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:01 am

What's your team then Mr Selector?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Jun 07, 2017 7:17 am

Boycs wrote:What's your team then Mr Selector?


Feb 26 post. Southee and Milne are interchangable. Same team in March 1 5pm post - but I really lash out at whats wrong with the NZ odi team.

Santner bats 9 - so it bats deeper than present team with a specialist bat at 6 to boot.

Whether Blundell or Phillips is the keeper or Solia or Chapman the middle order bat - let some trialling occur next summer well before the World Cup.

Thats what I'd start with, and I would just keep adding more batting until its formiddable (eg Astle for Santner at 9).

A positive is that KW's bulk of runs has not concealed the problems at this CT - so now Hesson can rework the team he wants to try and win a World Cup with.

I've long written about Scott Kugeleijn in this thread, and its now apparent for many more, why I see his development as critical to future NZ test and odi success, where CDG could assist a lot as well.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:39 am

It was fitting that Bangladesh knocked NZ out after their top order collapsed, and their numbers 5 and 6 scored centuries against us. Bangladesh cricket is not treated with the same respect reserved for top cricket nations by NZ media, and yet, Mahamudulla and Shakib scoring match winning centuries is no surprise to any cricket fan, with Shakib's talents well known and Mahumudullah knocking out England in 2015 WC with a great ton, and he scored another ton against NZ in pool play. So we know that the Bangladesh middle order has some serious batting talent, unlike NZ's at present.

So lets hope at the 2019 WC, NZC and Mike Hesson look back to this point for making the necessary changes and introducing new batting talent and trialing more.

There are many calls on social media for George Worker. These fans have clearly not appreciated that George Worker looked out of place playing against Ireland, with a bowling line up that Neil Broom absolutely dominated.

No, George Worker is still not the answer.

But NZ is unable to have an unreliable sloggy opener in Ronchi and the world's worst (of test status nations) middle order from 5 to 8, and expect KW, Taylor and Guptil to score enough for wins consistently to win series and events.

I take little enjoyment in being right about in saying the NZC team was in a shambles well before any of the fans or media appreciated just how big the hole at 5 to 8 was; but I would like to see the changes I proposed then be implemented. Or alternative new ideas implemented.

I was a huge fan of Corey Anderson, but a golden arm effort against England as they post over 300, and his inability to hit big runs consistently at international, domestic or IPL levels are telling. He still only has the 1 list A century, and his batting numbers against all countries bar SL and WI and perhaps India is now woeful. And as for Jimmy Neesham and the ol' which one do you leave out with him and Corey, it has now become why are we picking both or either of them?

When Corey became unable to bowl and Grant Elliot retired, the side had its balance absolutely rocked. Corey has never been good enough as a specialist batsman, but that wasn't his role as such. He was the 5th bowler. Elliot was good enough as a specialist batsman. Neesham is not good enough to be a 5th bowler and is not good enough as a specialist batsman. There was no comfortable Santner for Vettori like player swap. Latham does not provide a McCullum type spark at the top and bats too slowly in internationals for this current level of 300 type scores being necessary regularly. And Ronchi, despite one score against Australia, has been a failing of the NZ ODI team since the last WC, and even then I preferred him to open ahead of Latham in this CT.

So now the whole cricket world knows that NZC ODI is in a shambles. That's okay. As long as we head into the next WC with a new strategy and plan to win. As a NZC fan, we've had a very good run from 2013-2016; and I'm happy for the next year to be more rocky as we search for a new middle order and a wicket keeper bat, while finding a suitable opening partner to Guptill, hopefully some of which are match winners.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Jun 11, 2017 3:10 pm

NZ media is going easy on Corey and Jimmy, but are taking a Bruce for Broom position. There is also support for Philips and Blundell to take Ronchi's spot at the top. I've advocated for these latter 2 a lot and for a long time.

I still do not believe that #6 has to be an allrounder given NZ often needs more runs. Which means Chapman or Solia in addition to Bruce is worth experimenting with. Heck, if 2 fail, try Latham in the middle order.

Kuggeleijn is a better bowler than Corey Anderson, and if he bats 7 or 8, with CDG (or Astle) with Santner at 9, the 5 to 8 batting probem is well strengthened from where it is at present. A specialist bat 5 and 6 will allow for 3 #8's at 7, 8 and 9 effectively and the bowling will remain strong. But Kugs and Astle and even CDG may think of themselves as far better bats than #8's. I hope they do and I hope they're right.

1 Guptill
2 Phillips + / Blundell
3 Williamson (6)
4 Taylor
5 Solia / Chapman
6 Bruce (7)
7 Kuggelijn (3) / Astle
8 CDG / Astle (5)
9 Santner (4)
10 Southee (2) / Milne (3) with Kugs or CDG on new ball duty / Sodhi if a turning track
11 Boult (1)

Todd Astle remains an option in this mix as a bowling allrounder option. This is the team skeleton I would be trialling ASAP. I prefer Sodhi to Astle as the 2nd spinner, but Astle's batting brings him into contention if CDG or Kuggs struggle to prove of sufficient merit.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby raja » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:44 pm

Agree that the relatively newer guys like CDG, Anderson & Neesham aren't consistent at all but I'm more disappointed with the likes of Guptill and Taylor. It's high time they got more consistent and didn't put all the pressure on poor Kane.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:42 am

raja wrote:Agree that the relatively newer guys like CDG, Anderson & Neesham aren't consistent at all but I'm more disappointed with the likes of Guptill and Taylor. It's high time they got more consistent and didn't put all the pressure on poor Kane.


I don't think I agree with you here raja. Taylor has been pretty consistent for a long time. Even this past ICC event he was a tick under 50 (46, 39, 63). He's just not as good as KW. And his initial innings strike rotation could be hastened up a bit for my liking, but overall, he's light years ahead of proven talent available in NZ, bar the problematic Jesse Ryder.

Guptil's role as an opener is different to Taylor and KW, and while he's in top 10 or hovering around it, that's good enough for me when you look at present batting talent in the world (Amla, De Kock, De Villiers, Faf, Sharma, Kohli, Singh, Root, Morgan, Smith, Warner, Mathews, et al). Guptil wins more games single handedly than KW, but KW significantly contributes more often. Guptil's centuries to wins would easily beat Taylors in recent years I think cos he scores big runs more swiftly. Even a 70 by Guptil lays the foundation for a close to 300'ish score despite a mediocre middle order after Taylor.

At the time of writing, Guptill is ranked 8th, KW 9th and Taylor 14th. For best 3 alone, that has us behind Safrica, equal to India (or a smidge behind when Dhamwan is their 4th at 15th), and well ahead of Australia and England.

So for me, Guptil and Taylor are certainly not the issue. I find it a bit hard to criticise Taylor's slow starting SR when we are not batting out our alloted innings overs. England only has Root in the top 15, but they manage to cram 6 batsmen, Root, Hales, Morgan, Stokes, Buttler, and Roy into the top 30. That to me demonstrates that NZ weakness is not our best batsmen, but our support players. That said, Broom is ranked 25th, so I expect England could collapse spectacularly and often in some odi games. But overall, it is a smarter strategy to play the numbers.

I think a current problem is that these 3 batsmen, whether people agree or not, are probably walk ins to NZ best ever ODI XI, once the rose tinted glasses of Greatbatch, Jones and Crowe from 1992 WC are taken off. Throw in Nathan Astle and Chris Cairns with McCullum keeping, I think Martin Crowe, Glenn Turner et al are really sweating to take spots off them despite their much higher reputations, especially in test and FC cricket. Now while most fans, myself included, would still find a way to get Martin Crowe into NZ's best ever XI on sheer talent and 1992 WC dominance, (plus despite his low century count, his average and SR still beats Astle) the gulf between this three and contemporary players selected like Broom and Worker is just enormous and patently visible to all when batting in internationals together. That said, in T20i at least, the gulf to Bruce was far less obvious, and he ran himself out to preserve KW's wicket on a bad KW call. So his team playing is in no doubt.

So my opinion is quite the opposite, the rest of the team have to stop relying on the Big 3 to score the bulk of 300 runs every game, and the selectors to look for great support acts like England's current batch of non-great cricketers. England has a massive luxury right now in that Stokes has found batting form and Ali bats at 7 and bowls most his overs. Any side playing England knows that 5 wickets down only brings Ali to the crease, and he has more centuries in him. I'm sure we don't need to copy that philosophy exactly and have a wishful Neesham at 5 or 6 and Anderson at 7 try and perform the same role, but I do want batsmen capable of centuries at 5 and 6! So I would play 6 batsmen incl the keeper. Then bowling allrounders to 8 or 9. Then some starch for the bowling. We don't need 2 of the big 3 to become to perform better to ease the pressure on Kane. We need the support players to lessen the burden on all 3. NZ has traditionally excelled in producing many good, v good but not great cricketers, but right now we're short on the good batsmen, despite having 3 of our best ever.

But I would suggest Hesson, in searchiing for these new bats, is more aggressive than he was with Broom and Nicholls. Give Bruce an extended run, but if the rest look like a fish out of water like Worker has, drop em and select the next one. So where I suggest Solia is given a chance, if he looks to play like a muppet at international level, drop him. Try someone else. Same for Phillips and Blundell. Get a quck sighter of who looks to have the goods, then give that player an extended opportunity. Nicholls never looked right to me, Worker looks out of place at international, and Broom only looks great against weaker bowlers.

To use a metaphor, that you will like raja, it is like NZ went into the player auction, chose 3 great batsmen, a tonne (far too many specialist bowlers to play in one match) of a seam attack and was left with the dregs of the middle order to attempt to form a balanced team with.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby raja » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:16 pm

Paddles wrote: To use a metaphor, that you will like raja, it is like NZ went into the player section auction, chose 3 great batsmen, a tonne (far too many to play in one match seam attack) and was left with the dregs of the middle order to attempt to form a balanced team with.

:grin:
I seem to remember many NZ teams of the past having similar dregs. Except for Hadlee and Vettori, every other "so-called" all-rounder they've had has been neither here nor there. Astle was quality, but then he was counted as a batsman, right? Styris too.

And yet I like these NZ players. Stars they might not be, and falter they might often - but there's a charm in watching them try (often in vain). Maybe someone needs to set them higher standards - like getting a 40 at least. Right now, even that looks like a tall order for them.

I hope the IPL isn't spoiling it for some of them.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:53 pm

raja wrote:
Paddles wrote: To use a metaphor, that you will like raja, it is like NZ went into the player section auction, chose 3 great batsmen, a tonne (far too many to play in one match seam attack) and was left with the dregs of the middle order to attempt to form a balanced team with.

:grin:
I seem to remember many NZ teams of the past having similar dregs. Except for Hadlee and Vettori, every other "so-called" all-rounder they've had has been neither here nor there. Astle was quality, but then he was counted as a batsman, right? Styris too.

And yet I like these NZ players. Stars they might not be, and falter they might often - but there's a charm in watching them try (often in vain). Maybe someone needs to set them higher standards - like getting a 40 at least. Right now, even that looks like a tall order for them.

I hope the IPL isn't spoiling it for some of them.


Our dreggs historically were v good for us; Flemming, McMillan, Harris, Styris, Oram, Twose, Astle, McCullum, Elliott et al; there's a lot of overs as well as runs there with Nash, Wilson, Mills all useful with the bat too as frontline seamers. We just lacked world class bar Bond Hadlee Cairns Vettori Crowe and Jones. You have to remember, NZ historically ranks 3rd in ICC event results behind only Australia and India. Our dreggs have typically been magnificent for us for a long time.

Our current 5 to 8 is weaker than past efforts. Its the dreggs of the dreggs.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:38 am

What's next for New Zealand anyway? Touring anywhere?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:19 pm

Boycs wrote:What's next for New Zealand anyway? Touring anywhere?

Nothing planned in ftp but India want us to do a limited overs tour on September. Nothing finalised that I know of yet.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:50 am

Ronchi has retired. Was he set to get more games for New Zealand? Or at 36 was he pretty much expected to go? Hit a couple of 60s in the CT.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:20 pm

Boycs wrote:Ronchi has retired. Was he set to get more games for New Zealand? Or at 36 was he pretty much expected to go? Hit a couple of 60s in the CT.


His continued selection in the face of repeated failure was on its way to becomming a meme in NZ sporting circles.

We have two kids dislaying talent with gloves and limited overs batting. NZC gotta get at least one of them WC ready, if not both.

For all his failures, Ronchi has great and memorable highlights in his career. A peculiar career of hot and cold in and for both Aus and NZ.

But I'd say his official retirement this week is as a result of a shoulder tap telling him that he isn't getting a comtract this year and that Blundell and Phillips are to be given opportunities now.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:41 pm

And hours after Ronchi's retirement is announced from international cricket, so is Jeetan Patels.

Today the NZC contracted list was released. I am glad that NZC is committed to moving on from Jeetan Patel. Santner, Sodhi and Astle deserve every possible opportunity between them for now and selector Larsen now appreciates this.

Contracted players are:

Corey Anderson, Trent Boult, Neil Broom, Colin de Grandhomme, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Mitchell McClenaghan, Adam Milne, Colin Munro, Henry Nicholls, James Neesham, Jeet Raval, Mitchell Santner, Ish Sodhi, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner, BJ Watling, Kane Williamson, George Worker.

Anderson and Neesham retain their contracts despite their disappointments. That to me is no surprise in itself. What is more amusing is that there is no regular limited overs keeper with a contract, despite Latham.

To the disapointments, Neil Broom has been awarded a contract with Larsen still adamant that he is worthy international contributor. This has occured when Tom Bruce has not received a contract.

George Worker has received a contract on the back of terrible batting in Ireland, and yet Scott Kuggeliejn has not received a contract on the back of brilliant bowling in Ireland.

So while the Jeetan Patel issue has been finally remedied, I'm not sure the selectors have what it takes to remedy the limited overs team any time soon nor bring in Scott Kuggeliejn to the test team as well and get that humming better.

Congratulations to Jeet Raval and CDG for getting their contracts, well deserved.

I hope that the likes of (Astle), Bruce, Phillips, Blundell, as well as outsiders Chapman and Solia but most importantly Kuggeliejn are not limited nor not granted selection in preference of contracted players as we head into a new ICC cycle with a view to the world cup. A decision now of Sodhi and Santner over Astle is more paletable than say Broom and Worker over Bruce and Solia or Chapman; Neesham and Anderson over Kuggeliejn and Bruce, or Latham over Phillips or Blundell. But all players deserve a chance to throw their hat in the ring and stake a claim as NZC attempt to rediscover a winning formula.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:29 am

I see Latham might have a fractured foot?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:38 am

Boycs wrote:I see Latham might have a fractured foot?

He injured a goot in Ireland. NZC has no games for a while. And with his recent form - isn't much of a short term loss in any format.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:28 pm

Paddles wrote:
Boycs wrote:I see Latham might have a fractured foot?

He injured a goot in Ireland. NZC has no games for a while. And with his recent form - isn't much of a short term loss in any format.


He's just scored a hundred in the country championship. So will he still be the man in possession comes NZ next test match? I like him

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:41 pm

Boycs wrote:
Paddles wrote:He injured a goot in Ireland. NZC has no games for a while. And with his recent form - isn't much of a short term loss in any format.


He's just scored a hundred in the country championship. So will he still be the man in possession comes NZ next test match? I like him


Yes but his rating is below Raval, KW, Taylor, and Watling.

Essentially any #6 not Santner, Nicholls esp and then Latham are contestable places that a home season form player could force their way into the team with a lot of runs.

Ironically Latham is being groomed as a future captain. No point looking like a compact left handed Tendulkar when you're nicking off worse in tests after cointy success than Ramprakash.

It will take a lot of runs tho from a select group of players to take Lathams or Nicholls spot. Will Young is such an example. Brownlie and Bharar Popli. Tom Bruce for Nicholls another.

But we have only 4 tests in 18 months; so its lea opportunitues for new talent. :(
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:04 am

Brilliant news for NZC fans today.

A genuine NZA team has been picked for a tour of India, including the names of all genuine contenders I have written about previously.

Whats more, national selector Gavin Larsen will be on the tour as manager, so will watch the lads play. Even better for NZC fans, someone has gotten Shane Bond to coach the side - while this will not benefit Wagner, Boult and Southee who are not touring, it is good to see that NZC and Shane Bond are open to working together when his T20 schedule suits. This can lead to further national team benefit.

Squad Picked: Henry Nicholls (c), Todd Astle, Tom Blundell (wk), Tom Bruce, Lockie Ferguson, Matt Henry, Scott Kuggeleijn, Colin Munro, Glenn Phillips (wk), Seth Rance, Jeet Raval, Tim Seifert (wk), Ish Sodhi, Sean Solia, George Worker, Will Young

The obvious first point is 3 keepers; with Glenn Phillips the early favorite for the national team vacated by Ronchi, helped by useful performances in the CT20, but the role is up for grabs. And it is possible that Latham may not be in the race as a keeper.

While the side is a touch short on batting, and includes up until today international level spuds like Nicholls and Worker; Munro, Solia and Bruce have earned their place on merit and have the selector's eye on them. Young has a chance to prove himself in a different environment after a strong finish to the domestic summer.

Sodhi and Astle have a chance to bowl off against each other. And Scott Kuggelijn gets an opportunity to work with Shane Bond. Henry may enjoy getting some more "Bond" time, and Bond is keen to work with 150km/h Lockie due to his pace. Seth Rance could just be making up the numbers on tour.

I do not believe for one second that Jeet Raval is an "A" player or in risk of losing his test spot like Nicolls is, I think this is just an opportunity to give him some quality cricket, as he has not had any since March.

First four-day match: September 23-26 in Vijayawada

Second four-day match: September30-October 3 in Vijayawada

First one-day match: October 6 in Visakhapatnam

Second one-day match: October 8 in Visakhapatnam

Third one-day match: October 10 in Visakhapatnam

Fourth one-day match: October 13 in Visakhapatnam

Fifth one-day match: October 15 in Visakhapatnam

This is a strong bowling attack for an A series. Henry was top 10 rated in odi for quite some time, Ferguson replaced him during this period, and Kuggs is arguably even better. Sodhi is a white ball bowler known far beyond NZ after causing problems to Australian 50 over and Indian T20 sides. Yet Astle often outperforms him domestically. But sending 2 spinners, 3 pacemen and a medium pacer (Rance), just 6 frontline bowlers on tour, means that this tour is not about the bowlers so much. All these bowlers have been identified by NZC of late, and are playing for pecking order behind Santner, Boult, Wagner and Southee.

The batting is light, such is the NZ plight, but if Bruce, Solia and Munro light up, a few Indian bowlers may wish they were somewhere else. Allrounders Astle and Kuggs will hopefully help the batting balance which may be further weakened with excess wicket keepers and Henry Nicolls playing as captain. (Ironically the latter can also keep wicket).

It would be great for NZC to see Bruce and Solia force their way into the national team based on strong performances on this tour. Kuggeliejn as well would help NZ team balance as an allrounder. Munro seems destined to remain mercurial, but even then, he has not been fairly treated by the selectors for his play in whites.

This is a very good A team selection, with no outsiders left behind who should be on it, a few more top fringe players like Milne, Santner, Latham (and Anderson/Neesham types) may have benefited from the tour. But they've had chances in Asia before.

Well done NZC selectors.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.