Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:48 am

New Zealand is using its upcomming odi series in India to experiment a few new things. No fewer than 6 NZA players will join the top squad. The Keeper's role is up for anyone including Latham getting specialist training to be in the mix. But that is not the end of experimentation.

Colin Munro will be elevated to open with Martin Guptil. Colin got a few good scores in the CPL batting at 3 and opening, and now NZ look set to replace the BMac top order explosion with Munro. If there was a faster striker in NZC than Bmac, it would be Munro, who has the world record fastest 50 in T20i. Like Brendon, Munro has developed a record of bullying Asian spin teams and struggling against the faster bowler nations. How do I think he will go? I am uncertain. But I applaud the experiment notwithstanding his precevied weakness to good fast bowlers.

1 - the field will be up in the circle meaning his top edges could well land safely.
2 - I am a big fan of the power scoring strategy in the first 10 overs and dislike Latham opening in ODi due to his slow scoring.
3 - Its bold with a great potential pay off.
4 - the rest of the options with less pay off were not doing well.
5 - If it doesn't succeed - then the Glen Phillips strategy of keeping and opening can be tried later.
6 - It frees Latham up to be a possible floating middle order wicket keeper bat, to bat at 5 if 3 quick wickets drop and rebuild, or float around the order.

Anyone who reads my posts will understand my frustrations with Neesham and Anderson, so will not be surprised that I applaud their dropping and the trialling of new talent. Ditto for Broom.

So what could a possible NZ ODI team look like in India? The 9 players selected are Kane Williamson (capt), Trent Boult, Colin de Grandhomme, Martin Guptill, Tom Latham, Adam Milne, Mitchell Santner, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor.

1 Guptill
2 Munro
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Latham +
6 Bruce/Solia/Someone else from NZA please not be Nicholls
7 Santner/ De Grandhomme
8 De Grandhomme / Santner
9 Milne/Southee
10 Sodhi
11 Boult

I hope Kuggelijn makes the squad and gets game time, either for De Grandhomme or one of the two quick spots as Sodhi and Santner seem the strongest spin candidates. It is rumoured Hesson wants Munro to be the 6th seamer, and wants more out of De Grandhomme with the bat. Astle may make the squad, but Sodhi is so far outbowling him in India and Astle has failed to make runs so far. This could change with more games remaining.

This is a very experimental team but shows planning of player development to the next world cup. Getting Kuggelijn in the team if his bowling is good enough, will no doubt strengthen the lower order. I do like the thought of a specialist batsman at 6 instead of a bits and pieces cricketer.

So it appears the NZC selectors have accepted the disarray that the 50 over team was in, and is now seeking to remedy it swiftly but also keeping it options wide open.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Bhumin » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:10 pm

Paddles wrote:New Zealand is using its upcomming odi series in India to experiment a few new things. No fewer than 6 NZA players will join the top squad. The Keeper's role is up for anyone including Latham getting specialist training to be in the mix. But that is not the end of experimentation.

Colin Munro will be elevated to open with Martin Guptil. Colin got a few good scores in the CPL batting at 3 and opening, and now NZ look set to replace the BMac top order explosion with Munro. If there was a faster striker in NZC than Bmac, it would be Munro, who has the world record fastest 50 in T20i. Like Brendon, Munro has developed a record of bullying Asian spin teams and struggling against the faster bowler nations. How do I think he will go? I am uncertain. But I applaud the experiment notwithstanding his precevied weakness to good fast bowlers.

1 - the field will be up in the circle meaning his top edges could well land safely.
2 - I am a big fan of the power scoring strategy in the first 10 overs and dislike Latham opening in ODi due to his slow scoring.
3 - Its bold with a great potential pay off.
4 - the rest of the options with less pay off were not doing well.
5 - If it doesn't succeed - then the Glen Phillips strategy of keeping and opening can be tried later.
6 - It frees Latham up to be a possible floating middle order wicket keeper bat, to bat at 5 if 3 quick wickets drop and rebuild, or float around the order.

Anyone who reads my posts will understand my frustrations with Neesham and Anderson, so will not be surprised that I applaud their dropping and the trialling of new talent. Ditto for Broom.

So what could a possible NZ ODI team look like in India? The 9 players selected are Kane Williamson (capt), Trent Boult, Colin de Grandhomme, Martin Guptill, Tom Latham, Adam Milne, Mitchell Santner, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor.

1 Guptill
2 Munro
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Latham +
6 Bruce/Solia/Someone else from NZA please not be Nicholls
7 Santner/ De Grandhomme
8 De Grandhomme / Santner
9 Milne/Southee
10 Sodhi
11 Boult

I hope Kuggelijn makes the squad and gets game time, either for De Grandhomme or one of the two quick spots as Sodhi and Santner seem the strongest spin candidates. It is rumoured Hesson wants Munro to be the 6th seamer, and wants more out of De Grandhomme with the bat. Astle may make the squad, but Sodhi is so far outbowling him in India and Astle has failed to make runs so far. This could change with more games remaining.

This is a very experimental team but shows planning of player development to the next world cup. Getting Kuggelijn in the team if his bowling is good enough, will no doubt strengthen the lower order. I do like the thought of a specialist batsman at 6 instead of a bits and pieces cricketer.

So it appears the NZC selectors have accepted the disarray that the 50 over team was in, and is now seeking to remedy it swiftly but also keeping it options wide open.
NZ batted 27 overs for their 26 (WR in Tests) all out in 1955

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Bhumin » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:12 pm

Munro put on good stand with Rawal in pink ball test today so he is fix but Tim S should selects as batsman in NZ international who is good vs spin

I do not think Sodhi selects in ODI koz he can not bats
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:40 pm

Bhumin wrote:Munro put on good stand with Rawal in pink ball test today so he is fix but Tim S should selects as batsman in NZ international who is good vs spin

I do not think Sodhi selects in ODI koz he can not bats

Unlike Straya, I bet NZ will play two spinners (Santner and Sodhi or Astle) in Indian odis.

Despite Munro being the only middle order batsman to get any runs for NZA in FC, the test selectors do not really trust him to perform in tests. This is odd given the carte blanch that BMac was allowed to play tests with.

If Munro is to make the test team- they want his bowling good enough to bowl 5 and they'll bat him at 6 or even 7 (below Wattling).I suggest people look at Munro's FC stats. I know of no situation like this in NZ cricket where someone regularly dominates FC cricket year after year and is not elevated to the test team for even a trial. Its not like NZ is strong with Nicholls at 5. I would have given him a go by now. Years ago in fact.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby raja » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:24 am

I didn't even know NZ were touring India for an ODI series.
I have the same problem with Rahane opening in ODIs for BCCI that Paddles has with Latham opening for NZ.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:28 am

raja wrote:I didn't even know NZ were touring India for an ODI series.
I have the same problem with Rahane opening in ODIs for BCCI that Paddles has with Latham opening for NZ.

So do Shastri and Kohli hence Shikar.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:56 am

So the payers from the A tour to the national team have been picked.

Munro and Henry are no surprises. Astle, fairly, has just edged out Ish Sodhi for the second spinners spot. This is very harsh on Ish, but Astle fans find his treatment of late as harsh too. There's a lot of good just not excellent spinners in NZC at the moment. Opportunities are getting rarer to come by, and these two have been competing for the same spot for years now. Either wayvtge outcome is more positive than the J Payel experimental failure.

On the back of a 100, Phillips gets the nod as the reserve keeper to Latham, despite not donning the gloves for the A team. He was my my fancied choice anyway, so fair enough.

Then, in almost a case of doing the same thing over is insanity, Henry Nicolls and Goerge Worker, with one score each, have been picked up by the NZ team. This means no Tom Bruce. I disagree with this decision.

Sean Solia never any got a game in India. A poor decision I might add - but this was possibly due to all the wicket keeper trialling, and NZ cricket probably wanted to prioritise this.

I am also disapointed with Scott Kuggelijn's non selection - but, while taking wickets, he did have some significant economy rate problems in India. While he got this sorted in the 4th and 5th one dayers, the prior damage may have already counted against him. Also, he failed to make any impression with the bat at any time in India. I hope its the not the last we see of him in the selection mix.

Worker and Niccolls have both struggled to find their feet against quality opposition. Both slug a lot runs domestically, but Worker bats slow against good opposition at intl lvl, and Niccolls all too often gets found out with poor stroke play. Niccolls is a good sweeper, so this way be a horses for courses. He has a good cut shot, but the rest of his strokes need a lot of improvement. Worker, I suspect that NZC are determined to continue developing in the hope he comes good. While I understand the logic if they see opportunities for him rotate and strike so as to score both more swiftly and steadily, I firmly believe that right now, Tom Bruce has paid all his dues, and is the best player to trial and develop. Worker has a terrible FC record, so I'm not entirely sure how NZC hope to develop his list A batsmanship to odi. One thing I do know is nearly half his list A stats are boosted by playing on some of the smalkest boundaries in the world. The question I have is how significant this fact is to his play on full size grounds?

It would be impossible to convince me that both Nicolls and Worker deserve to play ahead of Bruce (or even Soliola for that matter). The Worker decision is even more odd as he is an opener, with Guptill and Munro looking set to be openers, and with Phillips in the squad (opening bat wk). If Guptil got injured, is NZC saying that Worker is the replacement for him?

Tom Bruce with wider array of strokes, higher SR (and success in red ball cricket as proof of his batsmanship), has good reason to start feeling hard done by. I hope he smashes it in the Indian v NZ t20s and this home domestic summer and gets a chance internationally. I feel more confident of a big total with him in the side as against Nicolls and Worker, who seem to bat just to keep their heads above water, where the former often fails and the latter when he succeeds, taking an absolute eternity.

What to look forward to?

The Astle and Munro experiments. I'd also like to see CDG given responsibility of a full bowling spell. And I'm curious to see how Tom Latham goes against the older ball. While he may lack big hitting finishing - if he looks fluent he could replicate this in tests and bat 5 likely or even 6, meaning opportunities for a new opener to be found and a stiffer middle order.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:14 am

I was very close but for some reason Milne/Southee was chosen ahead of Sodhi for game 1.

1 Guptill
2 Munro
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Latham +
6 Bruce/Solia/Someone else from NZA please not be Nicholls
7 Santner/ De Grandhomme
8 De Grandhomme / Santner
9 Milne/Southee
10 Sodhi
11 Boult

Sure enough Niccolls was selected. I'm amazed NZ is only playing Santner in game 1 and not Sodhi (replaced injured Astle). Southee has failed thus far whereas Santner is 1-8 off 3 overs.

Milne was slower and disapointing. Both Southee and Milne bowled a lot short at very a friendly pace and line.

Munro filled in for CDG's injury admirably at under 6s, thus helping to cement his position as a 6th option. KW didn't bowl.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:25 pm

So NZ fall short by 6 runs scoring 331 to India's 337 to lose another ODI series in India.

A big opportunity to win a series in India has been let slip.

The positives were undoubtedly Latham's batting at 5. Taking him away from the new ball and letting him deal with the spinners is paying dividends.

The Munro experiment opening gets a pass mark after averaging over 40, but also providing useful and fairly economical overs where needed. Commentators may call him a one pace hitter till they're blue in the face, but if he keeps hitting the seamers out of the attack, he looks quite comfortable against spin.

Southee got 3 end of innings slog wickets in the first game, so his series don't look as bad as they are. Failed to make an impression all series.

Milne is way down on pace.

These 2 look very replacable with Henry putting up his new ball credentials, and a hole raft of people gunning for Milne's spot.

I don't want to put the deciding match blame on CDG - but 8 (11) and to lose by 6 is not great for a guy who can clear the ropes on any ground. Especially after his ordinary day bowling. I understand in NZ his bowling will be far more of a threat and a menace than Indian conditions, but his batting so far in ODI seems only to get into gear when the rest of the team largely fail and NZ is out of the match, but failing when NZ is right in the match with a chance.

I do not believe CDG has cemented his spot just yet. I enjoy his play and his demeanor as a fan, and I really want for him to succeed, but he needs to learn how to ice the victory cake and not stumble under pressure. I still think his bowling is prolly better anywhere than Jimmy Neeshams, but a fit and rearing Corey Anderson could yet regain a place in the team over CDG. Kuggelijn has been failing with the bat too often for NZA to really stake his berth for an all rounders role and will have to join the queue for a bowling spot right now.

Niccolls played a usefully paced knock of 30 something - this a step in the right direction for him, but I'd still have Tom Bruce over him. But if Nicolls starts putting together a string of useful scores at good pace, then I'll eat some humble pie, but not too much.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:51 am

Adam Milne last night returned impressive bowling figures doing what he has always done. Suffocating the batsmen scoring by bowling well back of a length on off stump or wider with a field set for the cross batted shots.

The only difference is that instead of doing it at 145k to 155k like he used to, he now does it at 131 to 134k.

While this technique is paying dividends against Indian batsmen, I am not convinced that it will bear the same level of success against say Australian batsmen. But we'll have to wait and see.

Colin Munro's bowling has been the hidden gem for NZ on this tour, as he has invariably filled in as required with good economical results. While not bagging wickets, he is proving his immense value as a 6th bowling option as his limited overs success against sub continental sides continues. Now as one of only 4 batsmen in the world to have 2 T20i hundreds, he will have more media and fan support in NZ when he seeks to remedy his career.

Colin looks fitter, and keener to bowl following Hesson's public dictum to him last season, and it is working a treat. I look forward to his belated test recall at number 6 should it finally happen this year.

Years ago when Sodhi was in the international wilderness- a fulla thought he would be a smart ass and ask me on a forum about Sodhi and international cricket. I replied that I think he could have a successful limited overs international career. Sure enough, a few months later Sodhi was given a new opportunity in 2015 and since then has steadily impressed and contributed significantly to some very good NZ wins. Sodhi was completely mucked around by the Jeetan Patel experiments last year which I was very vocal against on this site, fortunately these will not be repeated, but Ish faces some stiff competition from Todd Astle's all round game, and NZ's own frog in a blender left arm wrist spinner developing in Coburn, but it sure is nice to see Sodhi get continued international success after his very disappointing test career. There is a general agreement in NZ media that Sodhi ought to have played the ODI's in place of Southee or Milne, but that is written by journalists with the benefit of hindsight. Sodhi's performances prior to that series should have given them confidence enough to take the position then and get Hesson's nod of approval.

In limited overs, NZ has a contingent of spin and seam options with depth unlike what NZ is used to, even with McClenahan's retirement for t20 franchises as squad members Henry and Southee fight for places in the XI and Benett, Kuggs, Ferguson and more lead the charge to get a go. But the search for an ace test spinner continues, but Blake Coburn with 13 wickets after 2 games has all eyes on him.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/player/1124470.html

I still do not see the cause of NZC selectors love affair with Henry Niccolls, but I do understand the persistence with CDG's potential. But despite Henry's questionable inclusion in all 3 formats, I do see NZ forming the basis of a strong team for the next 50 over world cup - with Tom Bruce snapping at the heels of Niccolls for his ODI spot. I see the possibility of a very competitive NZT20 side playing the NZ Eng Tri Series this summer as well.

One query I do have is that given Glen Phillips was the front runner for an international keeper role with the NZA team trialing 3, is why he didn't actually keep wicket. He was very ordinary with the gloves in the 2nd T20 - and the question is - is this rust, or is he not suited to keeping to a leggie in Sodhi who can get prodigious turn? I have absolutely no idea. Doull thinks that it is because he is not a particularly good keeper, but Doull's displayed disinterest in NZ domestic cricket has hit embarrassing levels in recent times. He'd be a better judge of Indian talent if you cared for his opinion, which to be quite frank, I don't value his sound bite nonsense based solely on the single ball just bowled previously, at all.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:33 am

Best part of three days later and I still firmly believe that promoting CDG, Philips and Niccolls ahead of Bruce was an utterly poor decision making which led to the chase debacle in the 3rd t20.

Promoting CDG to slog is not a bad move per se but he does struggle to put leggies away on a turner. This may improve with another IPL stint should he be so lucky.

Maybe Hesson wanted to test Philips' mettle - I do not know. But Bruce has a very high SR and is a batsman batting ahead of and higher than Niccolls with success. Made no sense to dump him down the order.

I move on now.

Congrats India - Bumrah is still a massive find and now continuing development for your team.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:18 pm

NZ did not disgrace themselves at all. They played very well. Its hard to beat India in India.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:58 pm

bolero wrote:NZ did not disgrace themselves at all. They played very well. Its hard to beat India in India.


Exactly. So when a series is there for the taking, it ought to be taken instead of whatever that batting order was in the decider.

It may only be t20 - and not taken as seriously as premier formats but if you read back - you'll see where I stand loudly and firmly on Bruce as against Nicolls.

Bruce has the power and the SR coupled with orthodox batsmanship and behind keeper innovation. He is a complete batsman of strokes and power. I'm not saying that he's ABDV quality but he has the wide array of tools at his disposal. He batted well enough in the 2nd T20 if any doubts to his form.

Whereas Phillips was batting his 2nd only t20 innings ever (and has been scoring at a slower rate in recent times this off season), Niccolls is slow and limited (he tries to force his sweep and cut shots when not on 'cos they're still his best strokes) and CDG, a power hitter, has struggled with leggies on turners in the IPL. All things I expect a coach and selector to be aware of before demoting the number 4 to number 7.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:03 pm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/cricket/news/headlines.cfm?c_id=29

This is knee jerk journalism from a regular rugby writer, not cricket.

But, I like 2 things about his idea of Munro opening.

1. It gives Munro a test chance.
2. It moves Latham to the middle order.

I don't believe Watling is in any danger of losing his test spot as test keeper this season as the author suggests (he prolly has forgotten that Watling is no mug with the bat) but Latham I think has more value at 5 than he does opening.

Munro as an opener? I'd rather see him.at 6 but 'cos he typically bats middle order outside of recent white ball cricket but Sehwag has already broken the test opening slogger ice. NZ pitches are a bit different to India's, but if nothing else - my prediction of NZ media championing Munro's return into the test team and remedying his fledgling career there has begun.

After Sehwag, Gayle and even a dash of Warner, the idea is not as absurd or even revolutionary as it may seem to many test purists. While I question Munro against real pace - I also question a test captain having to deal with a Munro opening onslaught and all those wide open boundaries as a ring field and slips forms. Munro has done plenty of Sehwag and Gayle-esque big scoring domestically in FC with a lot of boundaries, incl records for 6s.

But there will be times when NZ needs to bat time for a draw - and Munro will infuriate fans. But that's not his job. It is Ravals. If Munro averages 40 - he is doing his job. Any more and its a job well done - even if he is suited to almost all test match scenarios like KW is.

Munro opening would leave Niccolls at 5 or 6 subject to Latham's spot - and thats just not good enough for me. He could be dropped and replaced by Anderson or Neesham - that's not good enough for me either. Tom Bruce, Sean Solia, Will Young or someone else will hopefully put on a ton of runs in FC and get a test shot.

Guptil on his last test chances ought to have been whacking it and he didn't. Munro is far less likely in my view and probably won't over complicate it like Guptil did. Munro sees ball, Munro tries to strike ball relying on natural talent with an aire of 'why overthink this technique and shot selection garb?'

This rugby writer and Hesson may be onto something as Munro just emulates BMac's stint as test opener. If its the only spot available to Colin, I think that he'll grab it.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:20 pm

I would back Munro as opener.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:56 pm

bolero wrote:I would back Munro as opener.


Munro couldn’t open my mail...

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:57 am

Boycs wrote:
bolero wrote:I would back Munro as opener.


Munro couldn’t open my mail...


This I predict will be the typical response from almost if not all 50 test purist fans in NZ. But Munro isn't Hales like, check his FC stats, he scores a lot of runs at a high average. He has got runs in WI T20 opening. He has got runs in India opening. Far better than those picked ahead of him. He is more Sehwag and Gayle like with a propensity to score huge FC 100's full of 6s.

Plus overall BMac's test slogging averaged out okay with some big individual innings against sub continental sides. This is better than batsmen failing to seam and spin dominated attacks both. A common scenario for the Fulton's, Rutherfords, and Guptil's.

My frustration with Munro's non-selection irks me in a similar way to Ravals. If the guy is clearly dominating the FC scene - year after year - and the guys in the test team ahead of him are not upto it and are failing - then he deserves a chance.

But with Munro, I suspect like BMac he may be more comfortable in the middle against a slightly softer ball, than against the new ball. But someone has to open and NZ has been missing out on Latham's possible higher out put in the middle.

Despite being a slugger, Munro to me seems to be a more rounded package than Niccolls as a batsman. Should it count against him that he likes to swing hard and hit boundaries like a Sehwag or Gayle if he is still scoring?

If opening is where Hesson is only prepared to give Munro a chance, then I support that a chance has been given to Colin. But it has to be for all 4 home tests this year. Not kicked after 1 or 2 tests of failures.But if Munro sees off Gabriel and Roach new ball (or hits them out of the attack) - he could slaughter the Windies off by tea. He is that destructive.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:32 am

:D to be honest I just thought it was an amusing retort. Though I quite like Latham and I quite like openers if they think he’ll prosper more in the middle then so be it

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:14 am

Boycs wrote::D to be honest I just thought it was an amusing retort. Though I quite like Latham and I quite like openers if they think he’ll prosper more in the middle then so be it


It was amusing.

What is curious is Munro's value as a 4th seamer if in test team could spell an end of the successful CDG test career.

With Boult and Wagner certainties, Southee and Henry have been the preferred opening partner to Boult. In his last test, due to injury, CDG opened the bowling vs Safrica with very good success. Munro isn't this good as a bowler. CDG also hit a 50 in this test. Rain prevented a NZ win according to Faf.

Right now there is a 3 way battle between Southee, Henry and the pacey Lockie Ferguson for the opening bowler spot. With NZ limited overs players in Ireland 2017, Bennett and Kuggs both snapping at their heels. If Munro plays - that will mean NZ have 2 4th seamers, and spin from Santner. This is of course excessive.

However the value of Munro's bowling and dropping CDG is only realised if a better batsman replaces him. Ryder is topping the FC charts again, but may not be wanted still due to his past history. CDG could play as a opening seamer instead of Henry, Southee or Ferguson - but the commentators would loathe this - even tho his bowling is proven good at test level.

Kuggs going off the boil with run rate leaking on the NZA tour is a problem for NZC as he is what we've lacked since Oram (who replaced Cairns), a genuine front line bowler who is a good bat. But CDG has been promising his potential for this role in spite of widespread doubters as his donestic role was typically bat first and bowler second.

Munro is good enough to be a 5th bowler - but CDG a better opening bowler than Southee, Henry, Ferguson or Kuggeleijn? Its a tougher sell for CDG.

They of course could both play - but then Munro's allround value with the ball is lost and CDG's weaker batting stings.

CDG may also have to look over his shoulder with a 2nd spin option like leg spin all rounder Todd Astle as a possible option to give the NZ attack more variety and a plethora of bowling options without a long but strong batting tail.

Personally I believe the 1st step if Munro plays is to pick more 5 batsmen, a keeper and the 4 best bowlers. If CDG is not in that team, the next question is - is the team better with him in place of another bowler? If those bowlers are Southee and Henry - I like CDG's chances more than most would. Seriously. If that bowler is Bennet, Ferguson or Kuggeleijn - well less so. Why? CDG has nibble and a bit of tail, but not pace nor hostility.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:19 am

Exciting times for NZC fans ahead with an experimental but fast, very fast, bowling attack named for NZA.

Kuggelijn, Milne and Fergusson will play for NZA in a red ball match vs the West Indies. These are not typical NZ gentle swing and nibble bowlers. If not getting swing or nibble, they're shorter length bang it in type bowlers, quicker than Wagner.

Colin Munro will also play in the match.With Raval and Worker listed in the squad, it is unlikely that Munro will be opening. Further, Latham has not been listed to play and take the gloves. Again, like the tour of India, Raval I doubt is in jeopardy from the top team, but just being given further opportunities to increase his experience levels.

Black Caps test squad: Kane Williamson (captain), Tom Latham, Jeet Raval, Ross Taylor, Henry Nicholls, BJ Watling, Mitchell Santner, Colin de Grandhomme, Tim Southee, Neil Wagner, Trent Boult, Matt Henry.

New Zealand A
: Martin Guptill (captain), Jeet Raval, George Worker, Neil Broom, Colin Munro, Tom Bruce, Tom Blundell, Todd Astle, Scott Kuggeleijn, Adam Milne, Lockie Ferguson.

The test team has only 5 batsmen, including Nicolls, so NZ will only be playing 5 batsmen. Further, there are no batting allrounders. With Henry the likely 12th man, that means there will be 3 seamers plus CDG, and Santner to bat at 6 and 8 if Watling bats 7. I do not like this. Like last year, I think a better NZ team can be put on the field.

But the NZA team is far more exciting. It has 6 batsmen including Munro. It appears to be better balanced team in structure. It is clearly short on the best batting in the country with Ryder still not included, basically meaning his international career is over. At least fans know where we stand. But with a pace arsenal and a leggie to call on, Worker, Bruce to offer 5th bowler spin option and Munro to offer 5th bowler seam, this team has a lot to like about it, even if I don't rate the batting Broom and Worker in the highest regard, and Guptill's red ball failures don't inspire me with confidence that his undeniable talent once did. But on any day, any game, he could whack a big century. He has talent.

From a batting perspective, what excites me, as they have for the past several seasons now, are Bruce and Munro. Niccolls is only in the test team on the back of 1 hundred, at some point he has to make runs or get dropped.

But what really has tongues wagging in NZ is the bowling attack of 140+ Kuggeleijn and 150+ Milne and Ferguson. Now Milne was bowling a lot slower in India, and this is a possible continuation from his county cricket spell, but these three guys are three of the four fastest potential bowlers in the country, with Bennett not in the team. While Bennett may feel hard done by after a stellar display in Ireland in the ODI last year, and table topping the FC scene this year, I do not criticise the selectors for omitting Bennett for these three players at this stage. Bennett needs to do more to reclimb the pecking order for a test recall. But he's sufficiently close enough to the rest to do this this season in my opinion if he continues the season the way he has started.

Todd Astle is in the team, and to be honest, if the NZ test team are going to play 5 bowlers, in some pitch conditions his handy batting and leg spin offers a bit more variety than CDG and Southee/Henry. Horses for courses may cause team rejinks, especially for tests at Hamilton on the turning pitch surface, like the second test.*

I wish this NZA match was televised as it may hold a closer contest and have far more interesting ramifications than the actual two subsequent test matches. The NZA team basically concedes the lack of batting opener options in NZ besides a 38 year old Papps, not selected and previous test failure. Broom demonstrates a lack of middle order players banging the door down, leaving the chances of international honours that much closer for Munro and Bruce, and a recall not impossible for Guptil.

I'm happy that CDG has been given continued selection on the back of last year's success to prove his value. But he must know that Todd Astle and Colin Munro both have laid very strong claims for top team selection. Niccolls remains a passenger in the top team for mine, and Bruce and Munro have stronger claims both in my opinion. Southee is overdue and owes NZC a few grand seasons to repay their faith in him, because there is a glut of medium to fast bowling talent around. So there is sufficient depth to make strategic changes to the team - when the selectors are ready to do so.

*The wicket block at Hamilton is separated and made from two different clay surfaces, one of which is very conducive to spin.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:07 am

It has been announced 1 NZA player will be promoted to the test squad after their match.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:01 am

Was just wondering on Indian origin cricketers to have played for NZ.

Started with Dipak Patel, now they have Ish Sodhi and Jeet Raval.

In West Indian team, there was one time when Indian origin players were almost half of the side. Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Ramnaresh Ronnie Sarwan, Nagamootoo etc

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:39 am

bolero wrote:Was just wondering on Indian origin cricketers to have played for NZ.

Started with Dipak Patel, now they have Ish Sodhi and Jeet Raval.

In West Indian team, there was one time when Indian origin players were almost half of the side. Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Ramnaresh Ronnie Sarwan, Nagamootoo etc


Ish Sodhi and Jeet Raval were born in India, as was Tarun Nethula. These are the only born in India origin players I can think of.

For Indian ethnicity as against Indian origins, Dipak Patel, presumably of Indian ethnicity was born in Kenya but migrated to NZ after a lengthy spell in England.

Jeetan Patel was born in NZ to an "ethnically Indian family" as was Ronnie Hira.

So Raval has cut through the "spinners" ceiling that Patel left behind him to get into the team as a bat. In my opinion it took far too long, and he had long done enough to get an opportunity at test level. But he's there now.

However, the big hope for the "next Kane Williamson", there is a youth star by the name of Rachin Ravindra who presently at 17 years of age, played for NZ in the last U19 in Feb last year (at 16). He was born in NZ.

For players of West Indian connections to have played for NZ, there was a player by the name of Sammy Guillen who played for the West Indies, then moved to NZ and played for NZ. I do not know his Caucasion, African and Asian genes, if any, that make up his genetics. Andre Adams also had some Caribbean genectics, and again I cannot confirm if any were Asian.

In the first class scene currently, there is a batsman and schoolboy team mate of KW named Bharat Popli having some success. And an off spinner by the name of Ajaz Patel taking a lot of wickets (but expensively).

Ethnic Indian participation in club cricket in NZ is significantly high.

The really noticable invasion of foreign origin into the top NZ cricket scene is South African origin and not Indian or even Asian. It is significant at all stages, whether they came here as youths, after high school or seasoned cricketers looking for a pro gig. In fact, there's just too many for me to bothered listing. This list is fairly recent, but looks incomplete to me (Derek de Boorder for example was born in NZ and excluded, though he could be of Dutch and not African origin) and of course excludes a Zimbabwean like Colin de Grandhomme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:New_Zealand_first-class_cricketers_of_South_African_origin

What is curious about the South African success in NZ cricket, is the comparative lack of rugby players having any success, perhaps the seniors look to Europe, but for those that came to NZ as youths, only Andrew Mhertens is the only star I can think of.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:49 am

Yes, I forgot about Jeetan Patel, another Indian origin player born in NZ.

Colin de Grandhomme name sounds Afrikaner, so Zimbabwe as you correctly said.