English

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English

Postby Paddles » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:59 am

Haha, just watching Wasim Akram being interviewed at the PSL draft, he has two colleagues speaking what I assume is urdu. Wasim just continually splits between urdu and english consistently. I don't think he even appreciates that he is doing it.

Ramiz Raja is an impressive polyglot. Who manages to bridge urdu, hindi and english very well (and more languages possibly). One of the few redeeming features of his commentary. But he knows what he is doing.

Wasim Akram is literally just combining two languages at once.

[edit] Now his colleagues are doing it too! They are literally just splitting languages sentence by sentence. The stunning female commentator actually changes languages mid sentence!

They are literally just switching languages non-stop and in mid-sentence now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZD12weoNX4

1 hour 18min mark more or less! (She's very fetching).

Shoiab Akhtar is doing it now. But more English than urdu.

These people are literally speaking two languages at once.

urdu urdu urdu spinners urdu urdu urdu openers urdu urdu udu anchors

Haha!
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: English

Postby Going South » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:41 am

ha. certain cricket terms are better understood if they are english words. true translation of cricket terms into urdu would make it horrible. same is true with hindi or local language commentary or interviews in india though 99% of indian cricketers are fluent in english.

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Re: English

Postby Katto » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:46 am

urdu and hindi aren't much different

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Re: English

Postby Paddles » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:15 am

Katto wrote:urdu and hindi aren't much different


GS, Raja - is this true?
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: English

Postby givemeahug786 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:32 am

Yes but

Urdu newspaper I can not read but you can understand well on spoken word or sentence
Those people who are expert in Urdu told me " once you know Urdu, Hindi is piece of cake"

I. Spends my time in India from 1955 till 1977 and back from 2014 till now ON and Off but
I never get chance to learn Urdu.
Sam Curran Dropped (ODI)

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Re: English

Postby bolero » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:29 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:urdu and hindi aren't much different


GS, Raja - is this true?


Yes, the spoken language.

Hindi is Sanskritised. You will find Sanskrit words and written in Devanagri script.

But a Hindi speaking person can easily understand Urdu and vice versa.

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Re: English

Postby raja » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:36 am

They're not the same languages but there's so much in common in colloquial Hindi / Urdu that anyone who speaks reasonably in one language would know the other reasonably well

The main difference is that a purer form of Hindi would have lot of words from Sanskrit. Urdu has a lot from Persian.
Hindi itself has a lot from Urdu, since it came later.
An average person speaking in India in supposedly Hindi would be using at least 50%, if not more, Urdu words, without realising it. :-)
Bollywood films, supposedly in Hindi, easily use more than 50% Urdu words (excluding English used nowadays of course).

They have different scripts though. Hindi script is called Devanagari, Urdu script is much like Arabic.

Sadly Urdu is rapidly declining in India.

Pre-independence (1947), both Hindi and Urdu were very strong in undivided India. Urdu was used more by Muslims. After partition, while Pakistan adopted Urdu, India began giving it stepmotherly treatment though it was (and still is) an official language. Over a period of time, Urdu has lost a lot of ground in India.

Personally speaking, Urdu is my most favourite language in the world.
It is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful language.

I often watch youtube videos of Pakistani news channels.
The news itself isn't so interesting - but the Urdu!
Just love, love, love it!

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Re: English

Postby bolero » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:54 am

My favourite languages are Sanskrit and Tamil.

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Re: English

Postby Going South » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:50 pm

raja wrote:They're not the same languages but there's so much in common in colloquial Hindi / Urdu that anyone who speaks reasonably in one language would know the other reasonably well

The main difference is that a purer form of Hindi would have lot of words from Sanskrit. Urdu has a lot from Persian.
Hindi itself has a lot from Urdu, since it came later.
An average person speaking in India in supposedly Hindi would be using at least 50%, if not more, Urdu words, without realising it. :-)
Bollywood films, supposedly in Hindi, easily use more than 50% Urdu words (excluding English used nowadays of course).

They have different scripts though. Hindi script is called Devanagari, Urdu script is much like Arabic.

Sadly Urdu is rapidly declining in India.

Pre-independence (1947), both Hindi and Urdu were very strong in undivided India. Urdu was used more by Muslims. After partition, while Pakistan adopted Urdu, India began giving it stepmotherly treatment though it was (and still is) an official language. Over a period of time, Urdu has lost a lot of ground in India.

Personally speaking, Urdu is my most favourite language in the world.
It is a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful language.

I often watch youtube videos of Pakistani news channels.
The news itself isn't so interesting - but the Urdu!
Just love, love, love it!

correction.
hindi is oldest language over urdu which came much later.
hindi is derived from sanskrit that existed from 5000+ years where as islam itself is a brand new religion compared to hinduism by 3000+ years newer and arabic is source for urdu. what the F are you talking raja? we know your love for islam but fact is a fact. hindi is >>>>>>>> urdu in age.
hindi uses 50% urdu words? bull shit. it’s only about 3%. infact it’s the other way around. hindi is the base language for urdu that had all hindi words with 10% arabic words in urdu. simple reason is that hindi/sanskrit predates urdu/arabic and it’s always a NEWER LANGUAGE is adopted from OLDER language but not other way around.
another crappy comment is that “step mother treatment of urdu” in india. why the hell a hindu uses urdu instead of hindi in india ? pre-independence when muslims ruled india with draconian laws of imposing urdu over citizens by force but now there is no such need after independence. when a country is 85% hindu, why should anybody use urdu instead of hindi their “mother tongue”? India has many other languages (20+) than just hindi or urdu, which is used only north indians so the actual usage even lower than 10% even during pre-independence days, don’t exaggerate facts just because of your love for islam. use common sense instead saying crappy comment of “step mother treatment of urdu” WTF.

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English

Postby Going South » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:58 pm

Image


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... s_in_India

check the map. hindi is not india. it’s more languages than hindi or urdu.

here is a note for language % of india.

https://www.listenandlearnusa.com/blog/ ... -in-india/

where was urdu?

your love for islam make you lie. ;)

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Re: English

Postby raja » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:03 pm

No doubt Sanskrit is a very old language but Hindi itself is relatively new.

https://www.quora.com/How-old-is-Hindi
https://www.quora.com/How-old-is-the-Ur ... rst-spoken

As for Indian govt giving Urdu step-motherly treatment, this is how Hindi and Urdu developed officially in India/Pakistan

Status change of languages
Urdu replaces Persian 1837
Urdu and English made official languages of the British Raj 1857
Hindi granted equal status to Urdu in the United Provinces 1900
Urdu declared sole national language in Pakistan 1948
Hindi granted separate status and official precedence over Urdu and all other languages in the Republic of India 1950

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi%E2% ... ontroversy

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Re: English

Postby Going South » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:32 pm

how convenient that you omit % of people speaking the language?
your post reiterated the fact that urdu and english were IMPOSED language by non elected DICTATORs. that does not make it right.

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Re: English

Postby The Third Man » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:28 pm

Paddles wrote:Ramiz Raja is an impressive polyglot. Who manages to bridge urdu, hindi and english very well (and more languages possibly). One of the few redeeming features of his commentary. But he knows what he is doing.


He even learned a few words of Irish when he was over here for the Test mach this year

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Re: English

Postby raja » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:23 am

Going South wrote:Image


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... s_in_India

check the map. hindi is not india. it’s more languages than hindi or urdu.

here is a note for language % of india.

https://www.listenandlearnusa.com/blog/ ... -in-india/

where was urdu?

your love for islam make you lie. ;)


Exactly!

Aren't you making the same point I am making.

Urdu, once a popular language, has virtually disappeared now from India thanks to government policy and public antagonism towards it.

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Re: English

Postby raja » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:42 am

Going South wrote:how convenient that you omit % of people speaking the language?
your post reiterated the fact that urdu and english were IMPOSED language by non elected DICTATORs. that does not make it right.

Am confused by this post.
Are you saying that Urdu and English were imposed?
Or are you saying they were not imposed?

Let me just summarise my assertions, so that you can challenge specific ones (or all, if you like):
1) Urdu is based on Persian, Hindi on Sanskrit.
2) Although Sanskrit is a very old language, Hindi, as we know it today, is relatively young - and younger than Urdu. It has inputs from Urdu.
3) There is a LOT in common between the two languages, though their script is totally different. Urdu script is Arabic, Hindi script is Devanagari. Script apart, anyone who knows basic Urdu would know basic Hindi, and the other way round. (Which is why Rameez speaking in Hindi isn't such a big deal, actually). Most times, people use Hindi AND Urdu words in the same sentence, often without even realising it.
4) Urdu got marginalised in India after partition, just as it got adopted in Pakistan as its official language.
5) I said earlier that when someone speaks Hindi in India, he probably uses 50% Urdu words anyway without realising it. I was being conservative. I think it's higher. :-)
Think of simple - and very common words - like
aadmi - man
aurat - woman
zaroorat - necessity
kamzor - weak
taaqatvar - strong

These are all Urdu words.

The Hindi equivalent would be
purush - man
stree - woman
aavashyakta - necessity
bal-heen - weak (bal (pronounced as "dull") = strength, heen (pronounced as "mean") = without)
bal-waan - strong

Think of how many Indians use the Hindi version of these words compared to the Urdu version in daily conversations.

These were just a few examples that were top of mind.

Then there are some words that are common across Urdu and Hindi.
Like "ghar" - home.
The Sanskrit word is "griha", but "ghar" is one word that Hindi has taken from Urdu.

For the purposes of this discussion, I am talking about colloquial Hindi - that spoken by the masses in the country, not published in government gazettes. :-)

My purpose is not to run down Hindi. Not at all.

I love Hindi too, though yes, I'm madly in love with Urdu. :-)

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Re: English

Postby raja » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:53 am

And my love for Urdu has nothing to do with my love for Islam. :-)
I just find the language amazingly beautiful.
It is one of my eternal wishes that Urdu were spoken much more in India than it is.
It has been steadily dying - at least in the past, we had Bollywood films with had a lot of dialogues in Urdu.
Lyrics of songs used to be loaded with Urdu.

All that is gone now. :(

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Re: English

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:54 am

Ramiz Raja is a bit of a troll, though - seriously asking Ajaz Patel whether he wanted to converse in Hindi and not English?!

I found it funny of Ramiz. But he was definitely trolling. He got in a lot of trouble for a similar incident a few years back...

As Majumder explains, "When Tamim Iqbal came to collect his Man-of-the-Match award, you told him, 'Tamim: I can't speak your language. What then? English?' It was unbecoming of a man of your stature who has been involved in commentary for years."

Now if you are not Asian, or well versed in Asian culture, you need to understand what suggesting someone may not speak English means - it means they are not cultured, they are not educated.

According to Ramiz, "That was a very polite introduction to his Man of the Match award conversation - it was [about] whether he was comfortable, because I couldn't speak Bengali, and I knew he wouldn't be comfortable speaking Pashto, because he was playing for Peshawar. So would English be a good medium?" That might have been what Ramiz thought it was, but to Bangladeshis, who in part separated from Pakistan over their language, it was seen as a sly dig.


Fortunately for Ramiz this time, Ajaz laughed it off and most of NZC fans did not even notice it and were too estatic with a win to get remotely offended.

https://www.thedailystar.net/sports/why ... at-1201315

English, Hindi, Urdu, Pashto,,, how many more Ramiz?
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: English

Postby raja » Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:58 am

One more thing.

I am not at all interested in proving one language is superior to another.

Bolero likes Sanskrit (which I sadly never learnt in school - and found quite tough when I tried to read it later in life!).
I like Urdu.
Maybe you like Arabic.

Fine - each person's preference.

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Re: English

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:03 am

raja wrote:I am not at all interested in proving one language is superior to another.


Zamenhof tried to make a superior language - but Esperanto has not taken off.

I think the Romance languages sound wonderful. No idea as to their utility, though.

English is unnecessarily difficult and complex, so is Icelandic and Arabic by all accounts.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: English

Postby raja » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:12 am

Actually, Pashto isn't such a big deal for a Pakistani.
It's the language of KP province of Pakistan (and Afghanistan, of course).
The root for Pashto too is Iranian/Persian.
Even I can understand a few words (cos of the Urdu angle :-))

In South India, you will find plenty of people from Karnataka who can speak Kannada (local language), reasonable Tamil (language of neighbouring Tamil Nadu state), reasonable Telugu (language of neighbouring Andhra / Telangana states). They also speak reasonable Hindi and English.

I think what Rameez asked of Tamim was perfectly valid.

Tamim's first language is Bangla.

Which Rameez doesn't speak, so obviously he asked him whether it should be in English.

The only issue could be whether Rameez should have asked him at all.

When Atherton interviews Kohli, he doesn't ask him "English?" :-)

He interviews him in what he knows will be the common language between them.

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Re: English

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:17 am

raja wrote:Actually, Pashto isn't such a big deal for a Pakistani.
It's the language of KP province of Pakistan (and Afghanistan, of course).
The root for Pashto too is Iranian/Persian.
Even I can understand a few words (cos of the Urdu angle :-))

In South India, you will find plenty of people from Karnataka who can speak Kannada (local language), reasonable Tamil (language of neighbouring Tamil Nadu state), reasonable Telugu (language of neighbouring Andhra / Telangana states). They also speak reasonable Hindi and English.

I think what Rameez asked of Tamim was perfectly valid.

Tamim's first language is Bangla.

Which Rameez doesn't speak, so obviously he asked him whether it should be in English.

The only issue could be whether Rameez should have asked him at all.

When Atherton interviews Kohli, he doesn't ask him "English?" :-)

He interviews him in what he knows will be the common language between them.


Imagine Tamim did not speak English and Ramiz just started talking to him, what would be more embarrassing for Tamim? So that scenario isn't as bad for Ramiz...

But as I say - I believe that Ramiz was trolling Ajaz - he must have known Ajaz spoke English - maybe Ramiz wanted to look after Hindi viewers, but it was an all English broadcast and commentary... He was clearly trolling Ajaz. Who was a lil surprised by the troll and laughed. But after taking a 5for and winning a test - let it go without displaying any offence taken.

I don't mind banter - but Ramiz is playing with fire a lil bit.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: English

Postby bolero » Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:27 am

Sanskrit fever grips Germany: 14 universities teaching India's ancient language struggle to meet demand as students clamour for courses

Will Germans be the eventual custodians of Sanskrit, its rich heritage and culture? If the demand for Sanskrit and Indology courses in Germany is any indication, that’s what the future looks like.

Unable to cope with the flood of applications from around the world, the South Asia Institute, University of Heidelberg, had to start a summer school in spoken Sanskrit in Switzerland, Italy and - believe it or not - India too.

“When we started it 15 years ago, we were almost ready to shut it after a couple of years. Instead, we had to increase strength and take the course to other European countries,” said Professor Dr. Axel Michaels, head of classical Indology at the university.

In Germany, 14 of the top universities teach Sanskrit, classical and modern Indology compared to just four in the UK. The summer school spans a month in August every year and draws applications from across the globe.

“So far, 254 students from 34 countries have participated in this course. Every year we have to reject many applications,” said Dr. Michaels.

Apart from Germany, the majority of students come from the US, Italy, the UK and the rest of Europe.

Linking Sanskrit with religion and a certain political ideology was “stupid” and “detrimental to the cause” of its rich heritage, the professor said.

“Even the core thoughts of Buddhism were in the Sanskrit language. To better understand the genesis of oriental philosophy, history, languages, sciences and culture, it’s essential to read the original Sanskrit texts as these are some of the earliest thoughts and discoveries,” he added.

Francesca Lunari, a medical student who has been studying Sanskrit at Heidelberg University, agreed.

“I am interested in psychoanalysis and must know how human thoughts originated through texts, cultures and societies. I will learn Bangla also to decipher the seminal works of Girindra Sekhar Bose, a pioneer of oriental psychiatry who has hardly been studied – even in India. Learning Sanskrit is the first step,” she said.

Languages such as Bangla, in which Bose had written his theories challenging Freud, might face a crisis similar to Sanskrit because of the onslaught of English if these languages aren’t preserved within households, felt Dr Hans Harder, head of the department of modern South Asian languages and literatures (modern Indology), Heidelberg University.

“A significant part of the global cultural heritage will become extinct if major languages like Hindi and Bangla fall prey to Indian English which, in the process, has only got poorer,” he added.

An expert in Bangla, Hindi and Urdu apart from European languages, Harder cautioned against such a disaster as more upwardly mobile families stop teaching their own language to their children.

Studying ethno-Indology helps contextualise and link subjects to ancient texts.

“One can better understand evolution of politics and economics by studying Arthashastra by Chanakya,” said Dr. Michaels.

So this semester the institute is offering a course on ‘human physiology and psychology in the early Upanishads’ by Anand Mishra, an IIT mathematics graduate who took up the study of Sanskrit for his research on evolving a more grammatically suitable computing language.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/i ... urses.html

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Re: English

Postby raja » Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:57 am

Yes, Sanskrit seems to be more popular amongst foreigners than amongst Indians. :-)
Wonder why Indians don't converse with each other in Sanskrit.

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English

Postby Going South » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:09 am

There was a very interesting article in the Economic Times that gave the break up of languages spoken by the people of Pakistan. Interestingly 48 % of the population speaks Punjabi while Urdu is spoken by only 8 %.

Same myth is on number of people speak urdu in india which is less than 5% not 50% as most south indian rural muslims prefer to speak native languages than urdu. Hell, most south indians won’t even speak hindi. look at above map.

I always thought that Urdu was the language of sub continent Muslims. A few weeks later there was a letter in the Outlook by Khushwant Singh where he complained that the Punjabis had killed Urdu in Punjab. An earlier essay titled Aligarh Movement read “Another development during this period was the emergence of Urdu as a literary language during the period 1818 to 1905”. Where did Urdu spring from?

Mughal rule began with Babar in 1526 but started moving Southwards after the death of Islamic zealot, puritan Aurangzeb in 1707. Before babar in 1526, there is no urdu in india. it was an imposed language on hindus after muslims conquered india.

The word Urdu is derived from the Turki word Ordu, which meant “a military camp”. The language as we now know it had not come into existence during this period. Instead it was a product of the dialect used by the Muslims who ruled over Deccan and South India from the 14th century awards. The literary speech arising out of it, known as Dakhni or the Southern Speech may be traced back to the 15th century. It’s use was limited to the Deccan and South India.

Dakhni literature flourished up to the end of the 17th century, but declined after the conquest of the Deccan and South India by Aurangzeb. By the first half of the 18th century, the mantle of Dakhni fell to the newly rising Urdu speech of Delhi into which this colonial form of a North India speech virtually merged and Urdu became well established with its present name by 1750.

In Indo-Aryan language group, the oldest language is Vedic Sanskrit (1500 BC – 800 BC). Vedic Sanskrit is an archaic form of Sanskrit and it is the oldest attested language of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family. This form of Sanskrit is the language of ancient Indian scriptures Vedas. Vedic Sanskrit was the origin of languages which later gave birth to Hindi and other languages in this group.

After Vedic Sanskrit, another form of Sanskrit came into growth path. It was Classical Sanskrit (800 BC – 500 BC), which was the language of nobles and influential upper class. Classical Sanskrit is still one of the 22 scheduled languages of India and is an official language of the state of Uttarakhand. In present time, the speakers of this language are almost negligible, it is still taught in Indian school in effort to preserve it like Latin in western societies.

Classical Sanskrit was language of upper class however there was another language, Prakrit (500 BC – 500 AD) which had directly developed from Vedic Sanskrit in the same era. It was vernacular of common mass and it was developed in natural way in contrast to the literary and religious language, Classical Sanskrit. During the era, another form of Prakrit, Pali (500 BC – 500 AD) was in use. It was a literary language of the Prakrit language family. It is mostly seen in Buddhist scriptures. Pali was also used extensively by a legendary emperor of India, Asoka the Great (304 BC – 232 BC).

Both Prakrit & Pali, continue to grow in vernacular and gave birth to another language, Apbrunsh ( 500 AD – 1000 AD). Apbrunsh later gave way to Khari Boli (900 AD – 1200 AD). It was developed in the north Indian part.

From Khari Boli, in 19th century a more refined language Hindustani which the present day Hindi came into use.

Both Urdu and Hindi has separate and refined in their own way. Hindi and Urdu share much of the grammar though both used different script for writing and Hindi uses more of its word which are derived word from Sanskrit. Urdu derives more of its derived word from Persian, Arabic and Turkish. Hindi is written left to right where urdu is written right to left.

You love urdu? great. but that does not give you right to change history & origins.

I say urdu in india today is like test cricket. it’s on slow death in ICU. Purists love it but won’t accept that it’s dead and won’t move on. Blame Mughals that try to rub their turkish/ persian language on hindus of india by force, it is bound to die. it is “alien language” i am happy that nature took its course and urdu is dead, except in old literature which less and less people know how to read/write urdu.

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Re: English

Postby Going South » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:15 am

every year oxford dictionary adds new foreign words into english. there are many indian words in english today just like any german or french words. that does not mean english is not derived from it. same is true for couple of urdu words in hindi, and i am sure there are many non urdu words in urdu. take them with pinch of salt.

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Re: English

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:49 pm

Going South wrote:every year oxford dictionary adds new foreign words into english. there are many indian words in english today just like any german or french words. that does not mean english is not derived from it. same is true for couple of urdu words in hindi, and i am sure there are many non urdu words in urdu. take them with pinch of salt.


Oh English is definitely a massive pincher of foreign words - but it does not keep the pronunciation the same. The words have been modified. For instance - many many words in English that finish with the stem "ble" like "horrible" are taken from French. But the French pronunciation is completely different:

"ohreeblah" would be how a French person would say it. Over time the spellings of many words have been modified as well. A Frenchman would fail to understand English and a ditto in reverse.

Anyway - English was always going to have a large amount of French words in its language since it had Kings who spoke French and not English (look up Richard the Lionheart). Plus French is a romance language anyway and the Romans were once rulers of a large part of the island. So there is a strong French and Latin connection. The German connection is there as the Saxons were a Germanic people who migrated to Britain. But it is far less than the French/Latin influence.

Due to the origins of English and the role of French and Latin in King's court, law and in religion, it used to be quite acceptable in formal English writing to include French and Latin phrases and quotes. And this was done for centuries, but now it is perceived as being pretentious or a faux pas and there is a likely danger the reader will not understand.

The spelling of words is constantly in flux in English - century to century. And the definition may be completely modified: see "terrific" (as a positive celebration) or "literally". I disagree with "literally" as now a synonym for "figuratively" when they were former antonyms. It is a crucial word for the point of difference. But what is done is done. It was so widely misused that the dictionary changed to include the widespread incorrect usage. While an Englishman 400 years ago would understand most of today's English - he would be a little bemused to say the least.
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English

Postby Going South » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:49 pm

language spoken in metro cities widely differ from rural places. the language murder is understood only by locals of that city. For example urdu spoken in muslim neighborhood of hyderabad differ from nawabi urdu spoken in lucknow. hell, hyderabad uses a mix of urdu+telugu+hindi that switches languages in a sentence it’s so mind boggling for an outsider. name plates outside public locations are another political sour point for ages as you can only give as much on little space. no wonder english is preferred all over india as a “truce” language.

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Re: English

Postby raja » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:13 pm

Going South wrote:There was a very interesting article in the Economic Times that gave the break up of languages spoken by the people of Pakistan. Interestingly 48 % of the population speaks Punjabi while Urdu is spoken by only 8 %.

Same myth is on number of people speak urdu in india which is less than 5% not 50% as most south indian rural muslims prefer to speak native languages than urdu. Hell, most south indians won’t even speak hindi. look at above map.

I always thought that Urdu was the language of sub continent Muslims. A few weeks later there was a letter in the Outlook by Khushwant Singh where he complained that the Punjabis had killed Urdu in Punjab. An earlier essay titled Aligarh Movement read “Another development during this period was the emergence of Urdu as a literary language during the period 1818 to 1905”. Where did Urdu spring from?

Mughal rule began with Babar in 1526 but started moving Southwards after the death of Islamic zealot, puritan Aurangzeb in 1707. Before babar in 1526, there is no urdu in india. it was an imposed language on hindus after muslims conquered india.

The word Urdu is derived from the Turki word Ordu, which meant “a military camp”. The language as we now know it had not come into existence during this period. Instead it was a product of the dialect used by the Muslims who ruled over Deccan and South India from the 14th century awards. The literary speech arising out of it, known as Dakhni or the Southern Speech may be traced back to the 15th century. It’s use was limited to the Deccan and South India.

Dakhni literature flourished up to the end of the 17th century, but declined after the conquest of the Deccan and South India by Aurangzeb. By the first half of the 18th century, the mantle of Dakhni fell to the newly rising Urdu speech of Delhi into which this colonial form of a North India speech virtually merged and Urdu became well established with its present name by 1750.

In Indo-Aryan language group, the oldest language is Vedic Sanskrit (1500 BC – 800 BC). Vedic Sanskrit is an archaic form of Sanskrit and it is the oldest attested language of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family. This form of Sanskrit is the language of ancient Indian scriptures Vedas. Vedic Sanskrit was the origin of languages which later gave birth to Hindi and other languages in this group.

After Vedic Sanskrit, another form of Sanskrit came into growth path. It was Classical Sanskrit (800 BC – 500 BC), which was the language of nobles and influential upper class. Classical Sanskrit is still one of the 22 scheduled languages of India and is an official language of the state of Uttarakhand. In present time, the speakers of this language are almost negligible, it is still taught in Indian school in effort to preserve it like Latin in western societies.

Classical Sanskrit was language of upper class however there was another language, Prakrit (500 BC – 500 AD) which had directly developed from Vedic Sanskrit in the same era. It was vernacular of common mass and it was developed in natural way in contrast to the literary and religious language, Classical Sanskrit. During the era, another form of Prakrit, Pali (500 BC – 500 AD) was in use. It was a literary language of the Prakrit language family. It is mostly seen in Buddhist scriptures. Pali was also used extensively by a legendary emperor of India, Asoka the Great (304 BC – 232 BC).

Both Prakrit & Pali, continue to grow in vernacular and gave birth to another language, Apbrunsh ( 500 AD – 1000 AD). Apbrunsh later gave way to Khari Boli (900 AD – 1200 AD). It was developed in the north Indian part.

From Khari Boli, in 19th century a more refined language Hindustani which the present day Hindi came into use.

Both Urdu and Hindi has separate and refined in their own way. Hindi and Urdu share much of the grammar though both used different script for writing and Hindi uses more of its word which are derived word from Sanskrit. Urdu derives more of its derived word from Persian, Arabic and Turkish. Hindi is written left to right where urdu is written right to left.

You love urdu? great. but that does not give you right to change history & origins.

I say urdu in india today is like test cricket. it’s on slow death in ICU. Purists love it but won’t accept that it’s dead and won’t move on. Blame Mughals that try to rub their turkish/ persian language on hindus of india by force, it is bound to die. it is “alien language” i am happy that nature took its course and urdu is dead, except in old literature which less and less people know how to read/write urdu.



Thanks for this, GS. Educational.

1) Our discussion was never about percentages. Of course a much larger population in Pakistan speaks Punjabi as compared to Urdu. And that's mainly because Punjab province is by far the most populated in Pakistan (110 million) - the next is Sindh with just 47 million. And even in Sindh, the main language is Sindhi, not Urdu.

And yet Urdu is THE official language of Pakistan, alongwith English.
"Although only about 8% of Pakistanis speak it as their first language, it is widely spoken and understood as a second language by the vast majority of Pakistanis and is being adopted increasingly as a first language by urbanized Pakistanis."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Pakistan

2) So at least it has now become clear that Urdu (as we know it today) came into existence before Hindi (as we know it today). Not that it matters, but there was a doubt about this, right? Your article says
"By the first half of the 18th century, the mantle of Dakhni fell to the newly rising Urdu speech of Delhi into which this colonial form of a North India speech virtually merged and Urdu became well established with its present name by 1750."
"From Khari Boli, in 19th century a more refined language Hindustani which the present day Hindi came into use. "

3) I am not trying to change history/origins. While I find history interesting, even fascinating, what purpose would it serve me to try to misrepresent it here? As for Urdu, I am more interested in the here and now - and have only lamented its decline in India. Thankfully in my country, we still have some regard for it.

4) "I say urdu in india today is like test cricket. it’s on slow death in ICU. Purists love it but won’t accept that it’s dead and won’t move on. Blame Mughals that try to rub their turkish/ persian language on hindus of india by force, it is bound to die. it is “alien language” i am happy that nature took its course and urdu is dead, except in old literature which less and less people know how to read/write urdu. "
:lmao:
It's a pity! Just like the magic of Test cricket is lost on you, so is the magic of Urdu.
Anyway, to each his own.