Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:48 am

New Zealand is using its upcomming odi series in India to experiment a few new things. No fewer than 6 NZA players will join the top squad. The Keeper's role is up for anyone including Latham getting specialist training to be in the mix. But that is not the end of experimentation.

Colin Munro will be elevated to open with Martin Guptil. Colin got a few good scores in the CPL batting at 3 and opening, and now NZ look set to replace the BMac top order explosion with Munro. If there was a faster striker in NZC than Bmac, it would be Munro, who has the world record fastest 50 in T20i. Like Brendon, Munro has developed a record of bullying Asian spin teams and struggling against the faster bowler nations. How do I think he will go? I am uncertain. But I applaud the experiment notwithstanding his precevied weakness to good fast bowlers.

1 - the field will be up in the circle meaning his top edges could well land safely.
2 - I am a big fan of the power scoring strategy in the first 10 overs and dislike Latham opening in ODi due to his slow scoring.
3 - Its bold with a great potential pay off.
4 - the rest of the options with less pay off were not doing well.
5 - If it doesn't succeed - then the Glen Phillips strategy of keeping and opening can be tried later.
6 - It frees Latham up to be a possible floating middle order wicket keeper bat, to bat at 5 if 3 quick wickets drop and rebuild, or float around the order.

Anyone who reads my posts will understand my frustrations with Neesham and Anderson, so will not be surprised that I applaud their dropping and the trialling of new talent. Ditto for Broom.

So what could a possible NZ ODI team look like in India? The 9 players selected are Kane Williamson (capt), Trent Boult, Colin de Grandhomme, Martin Guptill, Tom Latham, Adam Milne, Mitchell Santner, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor.

1 Guptill
2 Munro
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Latham +
6 Bruce/Solia/Someone else from NZA please not be Nicholls
7 Santner/ De Grandhomme
8 De Grandhomme / Santner
9 Milne/Southee
10 Sodhi
11 Boult

I hope Kuggelijn makes the squad and gets game time, either for De Grandhomme or one of the two quick spots as Sodhi and Santner seem the strongest spin candidates. It is rumoured Hesson wants Munro to be the 6th seamer, and wants more out of De Grandhomme with the bat. Astle may make the squad, but Sodhi is so far outbowling him in India and Astle has failed to make runs so far. This could change with more games remaining.

This is a very experimental team but shows planning of player development to the next world cup. Getting Kuggelijn in the team if his bowling is good enough, will no doubt strengthen the lower order. I do like the thought of a specialist batsman at 6 instead of a bits and pieces cricketer.

So it appears the NZC selectors have accepted the disarray that the 50 over team was in, and is now seeking to remedy it swiftly but also keeping it options wide open.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Bhumin » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:10 pm

Paddles wrote:New Zealand is using its upcomming odi series in India to experiment a few new things. No fewer than 6 NZA players will join the top squad. The Keeper's role is up for anyone including Latham getting specialist training to be in the mix. But that is not the end of experimentation.

Colin Munro will be elevated to open with Martin Guptil. Colin got a few good scores in the CPL batting at 3 and opening, and now NZ look set to replace the BMac top order explosion with Munro. If there was a faster striker in NZC than Bmac, it would be Munro, who has the world record fastest 50 in T20i. Like Brendon, Munro has developed a record of bullying Asian spin teams and struggling against the faster bowler nations. How do I think he will go? I am uncertain. But I applaud the experiment notwithstanding his precevied weakness to good fast bowlers.

1 - the field will be up in the circle meaning his top edges could well land safely.
2 - I am a big fan of the power scoring strategy in the first 10 overs and dislike Latham opening in ODi due to his slow scoring.
3 - Its bold with a great potential pay off.
4 - the rest of the options with less pay off were not doing well.
5 - If it doesn't succeed - then the Glen Phillips strategy of keeping and opening can be tried later.
6 - It frees Latham up to be a possible floating middle order wicket keeper bat, to bat at 5 if 3 quick wickets drop and rebuild, or float around the order.

Anyone who reads my posts will understand my frustrations with Neesham and Anderson, so will not be surprised that I applaud their dropping and the trialling of new talent. Ditto for Broom.

So what could a possible NZ ODI team look like in India? The 9 players selected are Kane Williamson (capt), Trent Boult, Colin de Grandhomme, Martin Guptill, Tom Latham, Adam Milne, Mitchell Santner, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor.

1 Guptill
2 Munro
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Latham +
6 Bruce/Solia/Someone else from NZA please not be Nicholls
7 Santner/ De Grandhomme
8 De Grandhomme / Santner
9 Milne/Southee
10 Sodhi
11 Boult

I hope Kuggelijn makes the squad and gets game time, either for De Grandhomme or one of the two quick spots as Sodhi and Santner seem the strongest spin candidates. It is rumoured Hesson wants Munro to be the 6th seamer, and wants more out of De Grandhomme with the bat. Astle may make the squad, but Sodhi is so far outbowling him in India and Astle has failed to make runs so far. This could change with more games remaining.

This is a very experimental team but shows planning of player development to the next world cup. Getting Kuggelijn in the team if his bowling is good enough, will no doubt strengthen the lower order. I do like the thought of a specialist batsman at 6 instead of a bits and pieces cricketer.

So it appears the NZC selectors have accepted the disarray that the 50 over team was in, and is now seeking to remedy it swiftly but also keeping it options wide open.
NZ batted 27 overs for their 26 (WR in Tests) all out in 1955

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Bhumin » Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:12 pm

Munro put on good stand with Rawal in pink ball test today so he is fix but Tim S should selects as batsman in NZ international who is good vs spin

I do not think Sodhi selects in ODI koz he can not bats
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:40 pm

Bhumin wrote:Munro put on good stand with Rawal in pink ball test today so he is fix but Tim S should selects as batsman in NZ international who is good vs spin

I do not think Sodhi selects in ODI koz he can not bats

Unlike Straya, I bet NZ will play two spinners (Santner and Sodhi or Astle) in Indian odis.

Despite Munro being the only middle order batsman to get any runs for NZA in FC, the test selectors do not really trust him to perform in tests. This is odd given the carte blanch that BMac was allowed to play tests with.

If Munro is to make the test team- they want his bowling good enough to bowl 5 and they'll bat him at 6 or even 7 (below Wattling).I suggest people look at Munro's FC stats. I know of no situation like this in NZ cricket where someone regularly dominates FC cricket year after year and is not elevated to the test team for even a trial. Its not like NZ is strong with Nicholls at 5. I would have given him a go by now. Years ago in fact.
Last edited by Paddles on Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby raja » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:24 am

I didn't even know NZ were touring India for an ODI series.
I have the same problem with Rahane opening in ODIs for BCCI that Paddles has with Latham opening for NZ.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:28 am

raja wrote:I didn't even know NZ were touring India for an ODI series.
I have the same problem with Rahane opening in ODIs for BCCI that Paddles has with Latham opening for NZ.

So do Shastri and Kohli hence Shikar.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:56 am

So the payers from the A tour to the national team have been picked.

Munro and Henry are no surprises. Astle, fairly, has just edged out Ish Sodhi for the second spinners spot. This is very harsh on Ish, but Astle fans find his treatment of late as harsh too. There's a lot of good just not excellent spinners in NZC at the moment. Opportunities are getting rarer to come by, and these two have been competing for the same spot for years now. Either wayvtge outcome is more positive than the J Payel experimental failure.

On the back of a 100, Phillips gets the nod as the reserve keeper to Latham, despite not donning the gloves for the A team. He was my my fancied choice anyway, so fair enough.

Then, in almost a case of doing the same thing over is insanity, Henry Nicolls and Goerge Worker, with one score each, have been picked up by the NZ team. This means no Tom Bruce. I disagree with this decision.

Sean Solia never any got a game in India. A poor decision I might add - but this was possibly due to all the wicket keeper trialling, and NZ cricket probably wanted to prioritise this.

I am also disapointed with Scott Kuggelijn's non selection - but, while taking wickets, he did have some significant economy rate problems in India. While he got this sorted in the 4th and 5th one dayers, the prior damage may have already counted against him. Also, he failed to make any impression with the bat at any time in India. I hope its the not the last we see of him in the selection mix.

Worker and Niccolls have both struggled to find their feet against quality opposition. Both slug a lot runs domestically, but Worker bats slow against good opposition at intl lvl, and Niccolls all too often gets found out with poor stroke play. Niccolls is a good sweeper, so this way be a horses for courses. He has a good cut shot, but the rest of his strokes need a lot of improvement. Worker, I suspect that NZC are determined to continue developing in the hope he comes good. While I understand the logic if they see opportunities for him rotate and strike so as to score both more swiftly and steadily, I firmly believe that right now, Tom Bruce has paid all his dues, and is the best player to trial and develop. Worker has a terrible FC record, so I'm not entirely sure how NZC hope to develop his list A batsmanship to odi. One thing I do know is nearly half his list A stats are boosted by playing on some of the smalkest boundaries in the world. The question I have is how significant this fact is to his play on full size grounds?

It would be impossible to convince me that both Nicolls and Worker deserve to play ahead of Bruce (or even Soliola for that matter). The Worker decision is even more odd as he is an opener, with Guptill and Munro looking set to be openers, and with Phillips in the squad (opening bat wk). If Guptil got injured, is NZC saying that Worker is the replacement for him?

Tom Bruce with wider array of strokes, higher SR (and success in red ball cricket as proof of his batsmanship), has good reason to start feeling hard done by. I hope he smashes it in the Indian v NZ t20s and this home domestic summer and gets a chance internationally. I feel more confident of a big total with him in the side as against Nicolls and Worker, who seem to bat just to keep their heads above water, where the former often fails and the latter when he succeeds, taking an absolute eternity.

What to look forward to?

The Astle and Munro experiments. I'd also like to see CDG given responsibility of a full bowling spell. And I'm curious to see how Tom Latham goes against the older ball. While he may lack big hitting finishing - if he looks fluent he could replicate this in tests and bat 5 likely or even 6, meaning opportunities for a new opener to be found and a stiffer middle order.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:14 am

I was very close but for some reason Milne/Southee was chosen ahead of Sodhi for game 1.

1 Guptill
2 Munro
3 KW
4 Taylor
5 Latham +
6 Bruce/Solia/Someone else from NZA please not be Nicholls
7 Santner/ De Grandhomme
8 De Grandhomme / Santner
9 Milne/Southee
10 Sodhi
11 Boult

Sure enough Niccolls was selected. I'm amazed NZ is only playing Santner in game 1 and not Sodhi (replaced injured Astle). Southee has failed thus far whereas Santner is 1-8 off 3 overs.

Milne was slower and disapointing. Both Southee and Milne bowled a lot short at very a friendly pace and line.

Munro filled in for CDG's injury admirably at under 6s, thus helping to cement his position as a 6th option. KW didn't bowl.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:25 pm

So NZ fall short by 6 runs scoring 331 to India's 337 to lose another ODI series in India.

A big opportunity to win a series in India has been let slip.

The positives were undoubtedly Latham's batting at 5. Taking him away from the new ball and letting him deal with the spinners is paying dividends.

The Munro experiment opening gets a pass mark after averaging over 40, but also providing useful and fairly economical overs where needed. Commentators may call him a one pace hitter till they're blue in the face, but if he keeps hitting the seamers out of the attack, he looks quite comfortable against spin.

Southee got 3 end of innings slog wickets in the first game, so his series don't look as bad as they are. Failed to make an impression all series.

Milne is way down on pace.

These 2 look very replacable with Henry putting up his new ball credentials, and a hole raft of people gunning for Milne's spot.

I don't want to put the deciding match blame on CDG - but 8 (11) and to lose by 6 is not great for a guy who can clear the ropes on any ground. Especially after his ordinary day bowling. I understand in NZ his bowling will be far more of a threat and a menace than Indian conditions, but his batting so far in ODI seems only to get into gear when the rest of the team largely fail and NZ is out of the match, but failing when NZ is right in the match with a chance.

I do not believe CDG has cemented his spot just yet. I enjoy his play and his demeanor as a fan, and I really want for him to succeed, but he needs to learn how to ice the victory cake and not stumble under pressure. I still think his bowling is prolly better anywhere than Jimmy Neeshams, but a fit and rearing Corey Anderson could yet regain a place in the team over CDG. Kuggelijn has been failing with the bat too often for NZA to really stake his berth for an all rounders role and will have to join the queue for a bowling spot right now.

Niccolls played a usefully paced knock of 30 something - this a step in the right direction for him, but I'd still have Tom Bruce over him. But if Nicolls starts putting together a string of useful scores at good pace, then I'll eat some humble pie, but not too much.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:51 am

Adam Milne last night returned impressive bowling figures doing what he has always done. Suffocating the batsmen scoring by bowling well back of a length on off stump or wider with a field set for the cross batted shots.

The only difference is that instead of doing it at 145k to 155k like he used to, he now does it at 131 to 134k.

While this technique is paying dividends against Indian batsmen, I am not convinced that it will bear the same level of success against say Australian batsmen. But we'll have to wait and see.

Colin Munro's bowling has been the hidden gem for NZ on this tour, as he has invariably filled in as required with good economical results. While not bagging wickets, he is proving his immense value as a 6th bowling option as his limited overs success against sub continental sides continues. Now as one of only 4 batsmen in the world to have 2 T20i hundreds, he will have more media and fan support in NZ when he seeks to remedy his career.

Colin looks fitter, and keener to bowl following Hesson's public dictum to him last season, and it is working a treat. I look forward to his belated test recall at number 6 should it finally happen this year.

Years ago when Sodhi was in the international wilderness- a fulla thought he would be a smart ass and ask me on a forum about Sodhi and international cricket. I replied that I think he could have a successful limited overs international career. Sure enough, a few months later Sodhi was given a new opportunity in 2015 and since then has steadily impressed and contributed significantly to some very good NZ wins. Sodhi was completely mucked around by the Jeetan Patel experiments last year which I was very vocal against on this site, fortunately these will not be repeated, but Ish faces some stiff competition from Todd Astle's all round game, and NZ's own frog in a blender left arm wrist spinner developing in Coburn, but it sure is nice to see Sodhi get continued international success after his very disappointing test career. There is a general agreement in NZ media that Sodhi ought to have played the ODI's in place of Southee or Milne, but that is written by journalists with the benefit of hindsight. Sodhi's performances prior to that series should have given them confidence enough to take the position then and get Hesson's nod of approval.

In limited overs, NZ has a contingent of spin and seam options with depth unlike what NZ is used to, even with McClenahan's retirement for t20 franchises as squad members Henry and Southee fight for places in the XI and Benett, Kuggs, Ferguson and more lead the charge to get a go. But the search for an ace test spinner continues, but Blake Coburn with 13 wickets after 2 games has all eyes on him.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/player/1124470.html

I still do not see the cause of NZC selectors love affair with Henry Niccolls, but I do understand the persistence with CDG's potential. But despite Henry's questionable inclusion in all 3 formats, I do see NZ forming the basis of a strong team for the next 50 over world cup - with Tom Bruce snapping at the heels of Niccolls for his ODI spot. I see the possibility of a very competitive NZT20 side playing the NZ Eng Tri Series this summer as well.

One query I do have is that given Glen Phillips was the front runner for an international keeper role with the NZA team trialing 3, is why he didn't actually keep wicket. He was very ordinary with the gloves in the 2nd T20 - and the question is - is this rust, or is he not suited to keeping to a leggie in Sodhi who can get prodigious turn? I have absolutely no idea. Doull thinks that it is because he is not a particularly good keeper, but Doull's displayed disinterest in NZ domestic cricket has hit embarrassing levels in recent times. He'd be a better judge of Indian talent if you cared for his opinion, which to be quite frank, I don't value his sound bite nonsense based solely on the single ball just bowled previously, at all.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:33 am

Best part of three days later and I still firmly believe that promoting CDG, Philips and Niccolls ahead of Bruce was an utterly poor decision making which led to the chase debacle in the 3rd t20.

Promoting CDG to slog is not a bad move per se but he does struggle to put leggies away on a turner. This may improve with another IPL stint should he be so lucky.

Maybe Hesson wanted to test Philips' mettle - I do not know. But Bruce has a very high SR and is a batsman batting ahead of and higher than Niccolls with success. Made no sense to dump him down the order.

I move on now.

Congrats India - Bumrah is still a massive find and now continuing development for your team.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:18 pm

NZ did not disgrace themselves at all. They played very well. Its hard to beat India in India.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:58 pm

bolero wrote:NZ did not disgrace themselves at all. They played very well. Its hard to beat India in India.


Exactly. So when a series is there for the taking, it ought to be taken instead of whatever that batting order was in the decider.

It may only be t20 - and not taken as seriously as premier formats but if you read back - you'll see where I stand loudly and firmly on Bruce as against Nicolls.

Bruce has the power and the SR coupled with orthodox batsmanship and behind keeper innovation. He is a complete batsman of strokes and power. I'm not saying that he's ABDV quality but he has the wide array of tools at his disposal. He batted well enough in the 2nd T20 if any doubts to his form.

Whereas Phillips was batting his 2nd only t20 innings ever (and has been scoring at a slower rate in recent times this off season), Niccolls is slow and limited (he tries to force his sweep and cut shots when not on 'cos they're still his best strokes) and CDG, a power hitter, has struggled with leggies on turners in the IPL. All things I expect a coach and selector to be aware of before demoting the number 4 to number 7.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Nov 11, 2017 1:03 pm

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/cricket/news/headlines.cfm?c_id=29

This is knee jerk journalism from a regular rugby writer, not cricket.

But, I like 2 things about his idea of Munro opening.

1. It gives Munro a test chance.
2. It moves Latham to the middle order.

I don't believe Watling is in any danger of losing his test spot as test keeper this season as the author suggests (he prolly has forgotten that Watling is no mug with the bat) but Latham I think has more value at 5 than he does opening.

Munro as an opener? I'd rather see him.at 6 but 'cos he typically bats middle order outside of recent white ball cricket but Sehwag has already broken the test opening slogger ice. NZ pitches are a bit different to India's, but if nothing else - my prediction of NZ media championing Munro's return into the test team and remedying his fledgling career there has begun.

After Sehwag, Gayle and even a dash of Warner, the idea is not as absurd or even revolutionary as it may seem to many test purists. While I question Munro against real pace - I also question a test captain having to deal with a Munro opening onslaught and all those wide open boundaries as a ring field and slips forms. Munro has done plenty of Sehwag and Gayle-esque big scoring domestically in FC with a lot of boundaries, incl records for 6s.

But there will be times when NZ needs to bat time for a draw - and Munro will infuriate fans. But that's not his job. It is Ravals. If Munro averages 40 - he is doing his job. Any more and its a job well done - even if he is suited to almost all test match scenarios like KW is.

Munro opening would leave Niccolls at 5 or 6 subject to Latham's spot - and thats just not good enough for me. He could be dropped and replaced by Anderson or Neesham - that's not good enough for me either. Tom Bruce, Sean Solia, Will Young or someone else will hopefully put on a ton of runs in FC and get a test shot.

Guptil on his last test chances ought to have been whacking it and he didn't. Munro is far less likely in my view and probably won't over complicate it like Guptil did. Munro sees ball, Munro tries to strike ball relying on natural talent with an aire of 'why overthink this technique and shot selection garb?'

This rugby writer and Hesson may be onto something as Munro just emulates BMac's stint as test opener. If its the only spot available to Colin, I think that he'll grab it.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:20 pm

I would back Munro as opener.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:56 pm

bolero wrote:I would back Munro as opener.


Munro couldn’t open my mail...

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:57 am

Boycs wrote:
bolero wrote:I would back Munro as opener.


Munro couldn’t open my mail...


This I predict will be the typical response from almost if not all 50 test purist fans in NZ. But Munro isn't Hales like, check his FC stats, he scores a lot of runs at a high average. He has got runs in WI T20 opening. He has got runs in India opening. Far better than those picked ahead of him. He is more Sehwag and Gayle like with a propensity to score huge FC 100's full of 6s.

Plus overall BMac's test slogging averaged out okay with some big individual innings against sub continental sides. This is better than batsmen failing to seam and spin dominated attacks both. A common scenario for the Fulton's, Rutherfords, and Guptil's.

My frustration with Munro's non-selection irks me in a similar way to Ravals. If the guy is clearly dominating the FC scene - year after year - and the guys in the test team ahead of him are not upto it and are failing - then he deserves a chance.

But with Munro, I suspect like BMac he may be more comfortable in the middle against a slightly softer ball, than against the new ball. But someone has to open and NZ has been missing out on Latham's possible higher out put in the middle.

Despite being a slugger, Munro to me seems to be a more rounded package than Niccolls as a batsman. Should it count against him that he likes to swing hard and hit boundaries like a Sehwag or Gayle if he is still scoring?

If opening is where Hesson is only prepared to give Munro a chance, then I support that a chance has been given to Colin. But it has to be for all 4 home tests this year. Not kicked after 1 or 2 tests of failures.But if Munro sees off Gabriel and Roach new ball (or hits them out of the attack) - he could slaughter the Windies off by tea. He is that destructive.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Boycs » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:32 am

:D to be honest I just thought it was an amusing retort. Though I quite like Latham and I quite like openers if they think he’ll prosper more in the middle then so be it

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:14 am

Boycs wrote::D to be honest I just thought it was an amusing retort. Though I quite like Latham and I quite like openers if they think he’ll prosper more in the middle then so be it


It was amusing.

What is curious is Munro's value as a 4th seamer if in test team could spell an end of the successful CDG test career.

With Boult and Wagner certainties, Southee and Henry have been the preferred opening partner to Boult. In his last test, due to injury, CDG opened the bowling vs Safrica with very good success. Munro isn't this good as a bowler. CDG also hit a 50 in this test. Rain prevented a NZ win according to Faf.

Right now there is a 3 way battle between Southee, Henry and the pacey Lockie Ferguson for the opening bowler spot. With NZ limited overs players in Ireland 2017, Bennett and Kuggs both snapping at their heels. If Munro plays - that will mean NZ have 2 4th seamers, and spin from Santner. This is of course excessive.

However the value of Munro's bowling and dropping CDG is only realised if a better batsman replaces him. Ryder is topping the FC charts again, but may not be wanted still due to his past history. CDG could play as a opening seamer instead of Henry, Southee or Ferguson - but the commentators would loathe this - even tho his bowling is proven good at test level.

Kuggs going off the boil with run rate leaking on the NZA tour is a problem for NZC as he is what we've lacked since Oram (who replaced Cairns), a genuine front line bowler who is a good bat. But CDG has been promising his potential for this role in spite of widespread doubters as his donestic role was typically bat first and bowler second.

Munro is good enough to be a 5th bowler - but CDG a better opening bowler than Southee, Henry, Ferguson or Kuggeleijn? Its a tougher sell for CDG.

They of course could both play - but then Munro's allround value with the ball is lost and CDG's weaker batting stings.

CDG may also have to look over his shoulder with a 2nd spin option like leg spin all rounder Todd Astle as a possible option to give the NZ attack more variety and a plethora of bowling options without a long but strong batting tail.

Personally I believe the 1st step if Munro plays is to pick more 5 batsmen, a keeper and the 4 best bowlers. If CDG is not in that team, the next question is - is the team better with him in place of another bowler? If those bowlers are Southee and Henry - I like CDG's chances more than most would. Seriously. If that bowler is Bennet, Ferguson or Kuggeleijn - well less so. Why? CDG has nibble and a bit of tail, but not pace nor hostility.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:19 am

Exciting times for NZC fans ahead with an experimental but fast, very fast, bowling attack named for NZA.

Kuggelijn, Milne and Fergusson will play for NZA in a red ball match vs the West Indies. These are not typical NZ gentle swing and nibble bowlers. If not getting swing or nibble, they're shorter length bang it in type bowlers, quicker than Wagner.

Colin Munro will also play in the match.With Raval and Worker listed in the squad, it is unlikely that Munro will be opening. Further, Latham has not been listed to play and take the gloves. Again, like the tour of India, Raval I doubt is in jeopardy from the top team, but just being given further opportunities to increase his experience levels.

Black Caps test squad: Kane Williamson (captain), Tom Latham, Jeet Raval, Ross Taylor, Henry Nicholls, BJ Watling, Mitchell Santner, Colin de Grandhomme, Tim Southee, Neil Wagner, Trent Boult, Matt Henry.

New Zealand A
: Martin Guptill (captain), Jeet Raval, George Worker, Neil Broom, Colin Munro, Tom Bruce, Tom Blundell, Todd Astle, Scott Kuggeleijn, Adam Milne, Lockie Ferguson.

The test team has only 5 batsmen, including Nicolls, so NZ will only be playing 5 batsmen. Further, there are no batting allrounders. With Henry the likely 12th man, that means there will be 3 seamers plus CDG, and Santner to bat at 6 and 8 if Watling bats 7. I do not like this. Like last year, I think a better NZ team can be put on the field.

But the NZA team is far more exciting. It has 6 batsmen including Munro. It appears to be better balanced team in structure. It is clearly short on the best batting in the country with Ryder still not included, basically meaning his international career is over. At least fans know where we stand. But with a pace arsenal and a leggie to call on, Worker, Bruce to offer 5th bowler spin option and Munro to offer 5th bowler seam, this team has a lot to like about it, even if I don't rate the batting Broom and Worker in the highest regard, and Guptill's red ball failures don't inspire me with confidence that his undeniable talent once did. But on any day, any game, he could whack a big century. He has talent.

From a batting perspective, what excites me, as they have for the past several seasons now, are Bruce and Munro. Niccolls is only in the test team on the back of 1 hundred, at some point he has to make runs or get dropped.

But what really has tongues wagging in NZ is the bowling attack of 140+ Kuggeleijn and 150+ Milne and Ferguson. Now Milne was bowling a lot slower in India, and this is a possible continuation from his county cricket spell, but these three guys are three of the four fastest potential bowlers in the country, with Bennett not in the team. While Bennett may feel hard done by after a stellar display in Ireland in the ODI last year, and table topping the FC scene this year, I do not criticise the selectors for omitting Bennett for these three players at this stage. Bennett needs to do more to reclimb the pecking order for a test recall. But he's sufficiently close enough to the rest to do this this season in my opinion if he continues the season the way he has started.

Todd Astle is in the team, and to be honest, if the NZ test team are going to play 5 bowlers, in some pitch conditions his handy batting and leg spin offers a bit more variety than CDG and Southee/Henry. Horses for courses may cause team rejinks, especially for tests at Hamilton on the turning pitch surface, like the second test.*

I wish this NZA match was televised as it may hold a closer contest and have far more interesting ramifications than the actual two subsequent test matches. The NZA team basically concedes the lack of batting opener options in NZ besides a 38 year old Papps, not selected and previous test failure. Broom demonstrates a lack of middle order players banging the door down, leaving the chances of international honours that much closer for Munro and Bruce, and a recall not impossible for Guptil.

I'm happy that CDG has been given continued selection on the back of last year's success to prove his value. But he must know that Todd Astle and Colin Munro both have laid very strong claims for top team selection. Niccolls remains a passenger in the top team for mine, and Bruce and Munro have stronger claims both in my opinion. Southee is overdue and owes NZC a few grand seasons to repay their faith in him, because there is a glut of medium to fast bowling talent around. So there is sufficient depth to make strategic changes to the team - when the selectors are ready to do so.

*The wicket block at Hamilton is separated and made from two different clay surfaces, one of which is very conducive to spin.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:07 am

It has been announced 1 NZA player will be promoted to the test squad after their match.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:01 am

Was just wondering on Indian origin cricketers to have played for NZ.

Started with Dipak Patel, now they have Ish Sodhi and Jeet Raval.

In West Indian team, there was one time when Indian origin players were almost half of the side. Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Ramnaresh Ronnie Sarwan, Nagamootoo etc

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:39 am

bolero wrote:Was just wondering on Indian origin cricketers to have played for NZ.

Started with Dipak Patel, now they have Ish Sodhi and Jeet Raval.

In West Indian team, there was one time when Indian origin players were almost half of the side. Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Ramnaresh Ronnie Sarwan, Nagamootoo etc


Ish Sodhi and Jeet Raval were born in India, as was Tarun Nethula. These are the only born in India origin players I can think of.

For Indian ethnicity as against Indian origins, Dipak Patel, presumably of Indian ethnicity was born in Kenya but migrated to NZ after a lengthy spell in England.

Jeetan Patel was born in NZ to an "ethnically Indian family" as was Ronnie Hira.

So Raval has cut through the "spinners" ceiling that Patel left behind him to get into the team as a bat. In my opinion it took far too long, and he had long done enough to get an opportunity at test level. But he's there now.

However, the big hope for the "next Kane Williamson", there is a youth star by the name of Rachin Ravindra who presently at 17 years of age, played for NZ in the last U19 in Feb last year (at 16). He was born in NZ.

For players of West Indian connections to have played for NZ, there was a player by the name of Sammy Guillen who played for the West Indies, then moved to NZ and played for NZ. I do not know his Caucasion, African and Asian genes, if any, that make up his genetics. Andre Adams also had some Caribbean genectics, and again I cannot confirm if any were Asian.

In the first class scene currently, there is a batsman and schoolboy team mate of KW named Bharat Popli having some success. And an off spinner by the name of Ajaz Patel taking a lot of wickets (but expensively).

Ethnic Indian participation in club cricket in NZ is significantly high.

The really noticable invasion of foreign origin into the top NZ cricket scene is South African origin and not Indian or even Asian. It is significant at all stages, whether they came here as youths, after high school or seasoned cricketers looking for a pro gig. In fact, there's just too many for me to bothered listing. This list is fairly recent, but looks incomplete to me (Derek de Boorder for example was born in NZ and excluded, though he could be of Dutch and not African origin) and of course excludes a Zimbabwean like Colin de Grandhomme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:New_Zealand_first-class_cricketers_of_South_African_origin

What is curious about the South African success in NZ cricket, is the comparative lack of rugby players having any success, perhaps the seniors look to Europe, but for those that came to NZ as youths, only Andrew Mhertens is the only star I can think of.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:49 am

Yes, I forgot about Jeetan Patel, another Indian origin player born in NZ.

Colin de Grandhomme name sounds Afrikaner, so Zimbabwe as you correctly said.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:34 pm

At full strength, Northern Districts is the powerhouse of NZ first class cricket at present. With the likes of internationals KW, Watling, Boult, Southee and Santner, as well as Sodhi and fringe players like Kuggelejn, its no surprise.

So for it to be thrashed inside 3 days would normally be much more of a concern for New Zealand cricket. However, this latest match vs Auckland in my opinion produced a lot of positives. The first being some very slow and fighting twin 50's for Mitchell Santner. It is no secret last year he was promoted to number 6 as a test allrounder and instructed to block and bat time. He seems to be continuing this with limited but significant success.

KW got a 30 odd and 40 odd to get some time in the middle. Colin de Grandhomme opened the bowling for Auckland and took some wickets. He also scored a fairly slow fighting 50, not like his typical innings. But the really pleasing for me was the return of Scott Kuggelijn to the boil, with a fighting 30 not out and 5/36, where he totally outbowled Boult and Southee from second change in terms of wickets and E/R at 2.34 to Southee's 4.04.

With Watling struggling with injury and batting only this match, the NZC selectors will possibly be a bit concerned by his scores of 5 and 25 off 93 balls against a bowling attack where Colin Munro was first change and where Southee and Boult went for plenty of runs with only 5 wickets between them for the entire match.

Guptill smashed a second innings 50 at better than a run a ball against the star studded ND attack of Boult, Southee and Kuggs; further proof that he ought to bat like this more often in red ball in my opinion, instead of being defensive at the crease. Man of the match would have been medium pacer Matt McEwan with a blistering 50 and 8 wickets including a 6 for. But I know nothing about this guy and can not even recall having seen him play.

Santner and Sodhi took no wickets between them. Munro had no success at all in the game to speak of but bowled economically.

Getting plenty of media attention in NZ is the success of Hamish Bennett. With 27 wickets in 4 games, at 9.4 runs per wicket, he is further banging the door down after his ODI stint in Ireland earlier this year, and then overlooked for both the away and home NZA squads. I think Southee is on borrowed time at present, but with Henry, Ferguson, Kuggs, Milne on the fringes, Bennett appears to be seeking to overtake them. Bennett's bowling action is awkward and not aesthetically pleasing viewing. That said, he bowls at good pace which he maintains fairly well. My major dislike of him was previous lack of control and ball spraying - like Mitch McClenahan. That said, in Ireland he bowled with far greater control than I had seen him bowl with previously, regularly hitting a good line and length with good bounce. I can only assume he is continuing with this control. Shame he's already 30 and not 20.

For CD, Adam Milne got smashed around by the weak Otago batting line up, who appear to be chasing fast runs gifted Milne a 5 wicket bag where Milne went for 4.92 an over. Bruce top scored for CD edging past Taylor, Ryder and Worker for the honour.

So in sum, Jesse Ryder and non starting Black Caps bowlers are dominating the domestic cricket scene with all internationals playing at present.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby MikeR68 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:20 am

The 22 year old Ben Lister has had a flying start to his FC career Paddles, what is your take on him, couple of big scalps in Williamson and Watling in the first innings. And how is Sean Solia going NZ were calling him a future big star at the beginning of the year, haven't heard anything since.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:57 am

MikeR68 wrote:The 22 year old Ben Lister has had a flying start to his FC career Paddles, what is your take on him, couple of big scalps in Williamson and Watling in the first innings. And how is Sean Solia going NZ were calling him a future big star at the beginning of the year, haven't heard anything since.


Yeah good start to FC cricket for the 21 year old Ben Lister, but to be honest, by all accounts that pitch was greener than Kermit the Frog, and he took his five for on the first day. It would have been reported if he had some pace or unusual bounce to him, so at this stage, prolly safe to assume that he is just another NZ toiler. In the same game Matt McEwan, a medium pacer took 6/48, and he is hardly setting the domestic cricket world of NZ on fire after 30 games.

While Lister's 10 wickets at 17 might get a bit more interest in the Shield, on our November pitches we have presently:


H Bennett - 27 wickets at 9.4;
Van Beek - 24 wickets at 13.6;
Ferguson 19 wickets at 17.57 and
Milne 8 wickets at 19 in 1 game.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=12046;type=tournament

It is better to gauge our new bowlers later in the summer. But its not going to be much fun for the selectors if Bennett and Van Beek, both missing out on the NZA squad continue as they have been, and for NZ to have a disappointing home summer. I seriously believe that Southee is on borrowed time if he doesn't start performing soon. Kuggeleijn is the one I want to see step up and dominate again this summer, he is by far the best bat of the lot, bowls with good pace, and rarely injured. He's currently 18 wickets at 26, hopefully he maintains if not shaves that average for the summer. Because when he's off, he has a habit to seriously leak runs with short misdirected crap as well as look for "magic balls".

I don't know who you read that called Sean Solia a future big star at the beginning of the year, I've not read any such press on him, but I have big hopes for him after a stellar debut summer last. He made the NZA tour, but didn't get a single game as Henry Nicolls was given further opportunities, and NZ played 3 wicket keepers to develop our depth in the position post Ronchi. Solia has only played one FC game so that this summer and made his first 50 with scores of 56 and 14. He will probably get more FC opportunities later in the summer when the internationals for Auckland are away and/or Philips dons the wicket keeping gloves, but at this stage, in FC anyway, he is miles off the pace for the NZ team.

The white ball season will get underway shortly, that is where Solia shone last year with a glut of (comparatively quick) runs in the T20 and List A comps, including averaging 77 at 99.6sr in the List A. But as far as white ball cricket goes, I'd be thrilled for him to get an international call up this season, likewise for Bruce in the 50 over stuff if not tests. The selectors have finally announced publicly that Bruce is getting close to further honours and that they are very pleased with his development.

I do not get the Henry Niccolls, at any international level, continued selections. Probably the worst #5 in international cricket, any format, excluding Ireland and Afganistan. Even Bangladesh and Zimbabwe have better, as does NZ. And I may be underestimating Afghanistan.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:28 am

While the NZA team has posed selection headaches about in form and quality bowlers missing out, the batting demonstrates quite the opposite and a lack of depth in NZ cricket.

Guptill and Munro have suffered injuries and will miss the NZA match now. Their replacements?

Tom Latham from the test team and Jimmy Neesham.

I am over my calls for Jesse Ryder's return to the national team as the coach and selectors have made it clear by now that its not going to happen anytime soon, it all just falls on deaf ears, so there is not much point for him to play in the NZA team despite his table toppings efforts again this year.

I'm not even opposed to Tom Latham playing for NZA standing in the way of someone else's opportunity if he needs the hit and there is no good candidate missing out. But Neesham has scored;

38, 4*, 25, 38, 10, 8, 28 and 36 with 6 wickets in 4 matches.

After Bruce and Munro, and a possible Guptill recall which possibly would take a Bradman like run of scores to persuade me anytime soon, there is a serious lack of worthy and eligible batting depth for further honours in NZ FC right now bar Ryder and arguably older openers Papps and Woodcock who failed as youngsters in their National chances. NZC has announced it is Raval and Latham with Worker for the opening spots anyway.

Might be time for NZC to place an ad in the Johannesburg and Durban newspapers and lure some batting talent.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:59 pm

Milne out injured for NZA, Bennett in.

Gotta say, with respect to Milne, I think that this is a bonus for NZC given Bennett's form.

Who bowls 1st change, tho? Who captains instead of Guptill and control the bowler rotation?
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:37 am

The interdependence of cricket opportunities is often highlighted through player injury.

BJ Watling is injured and unable to keep, but when this last happened to him in England, he played as a specialist batsman. He scored a 100 and NZ won a test away in England.

BJ Watling is injured again and unable to keep. Tom Blundell, who scored a lot of runs last year in the FC comp has been called up as his replacement. He kept for NZA in India so is a proficient glove man.

This must mean that Henry Nicholls, with no big FC scores this year domestically and a test average of 31 must be concerned. To be fair, Watling only has a 50 under his belt.

Who would I bat given the choice of the 2? Well Watling over Nicolls is a no brainer for mine. But Watling had a mediocre past year with the bat, and Nicolls scored 1, his only ever, century in a NZ loss where he swept Maharaj repeatedly and then got out when a double century or a 150+ was required to save NZ.

This unfortunate turn of events, could potentially put the aspiration test careers of Munro and Bruce one spot further behind.

Only in team sports.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Yorkshire » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:45 pm

bolero wrote:Yes, I forgot about Jeetan Patel, another Indian origin player born in NZ.

Colin de Grandhomme name sounds Afrikaner, so Zimbabwe as you correctly said.


JP retired from test cricket now right? Probably his stints with county cricket not over yet.

CDG born in Harare

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:27 pm

Yorkshire wrote:
bolero wrote:Yes, I forgot about Jeetan Patel, another Indian origin player born in NZ.

Colin de Grandhomme name sounds Afrikaner, so Zimbabwe as you correctly said.


JP retired from test cricket now right? Probably his stints with county cricket not over yet.

CDG born in Harare


And Harare is in Zimbabwe.

Yeah J Patel has retired from national selection availability but still plays NZ and England domestic but he really wasn't in much danger of a national call up again with Santner, Sodhi, Astle and even A Patel.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:50 am

The much anticipated NZA game has been reduced to an utter farce.

Instead of being a proper match, the game has turned into match of 15 vs 11.

The West Indies were 137/5 - but made 450 odd for 9 playing their 11 best bats and resting 4 bowlers from batting duty.

For NZ, Scott Kuggeliejn did not take the field, his spot taken by Logan Van Beek - who was not even initially selected.

I have seen no report of Kugg's being injured, so maybe he will get a bat under these modified rules. This is ridiculous.

Van Beek was smashed. So was Neesham (and Astle on day 1). No real surprises there but a bit disappointing for Astle who ought to succeed better on non responsive pitches so as to challenge Santner. Not taking wickets is one thing. Leaking runs is another altogether. But when the game loses its FC status and you're playing against 15, the game has become a farce.

A big disappointment for me was Bennett getting smashed given his demolition job on NZ teams all year, as known stars Hope and Chase, plus new WI player by the name of Sunil Ambris piled up good scores. To get a sense of how ridiculous this game is, at 5 wickets down, Ambris who is an opening batsman, walked out to take strike.

The star for NZ, the sole initial selection fast bowler Lockie Ferguson who took a very impressive 5 for 67 and has thereby presumably leap frogged all the current domestic bowlers given his current domestic form (and serious pace) into fringe Black Cap selection with Matt Henry. Hopefully Kuggeleijn remains in the mix for an opportunity soon, though given his continued success in recent years.


I am very, very, disappointed that Kuggeliejn did not play and was behind Van Beek.

I can only hope that Kuggeleijn is injured. Which is an unusual hope. But its either this or questioning the selectors mettle.

Van Beek - seriously?

Anyway - I am genuinely pleased for Lockie, but would have preferred he had played with Kuggs as these two square off and compete for higher honours.

I understand being a good host, but NZC is far too obliging at times at the expense of its own player development.
Last edited by Paddles on Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:23 pm

Kuggeleijn missed the game due to illness.

I am oddly relieved that he is in poor health that isn't a serious injury.

Sadly an opportunity missed to impress, but at least he wasn't dropped by the selectors which was my graver concern.

Get well soon Scott.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:42 pm

The interest and knowledge that NZ commentators are displaying with regards NZ cricket is now hitting new depths.

Today, during the Sri Lanka vs India match, Simon Doull made a comment praising how Steve Smith and Virat Kohli had taken their batting to leading from the front and their averages reflected this. He then made a comment that Kane Williamson was struggling with his batting to make the adjustment since becoming captain.

While it is no doubt true that Steve Smith, now at over 71 as captain with a 140*, and Kohli with a dbl now at 63.94, Simon Doull seems completely oblivious that Kane Williamson is on 59.94 as a captain (49 as not captain). If being in that company and ahead of Faf Du Plessis at 57.85 as captain (41 as not captain) and Joe Root at 56.78 as captain (52.8 as not) are further struggling to make the adjustment, then I feel very bad for his expectations placed on further international captains.

Even if Simon Doull meant ODI, then KW at 48 as captain is matching Steve Smith and still ahead of his 45 as not captain.

It would be nice if NZ commentators are going to talk about NZ players to an international audience, actually spent some time familiarizing themselves with those players and their achievements and lack thereof.

I actually wouldn't hire him for NZ games anymore if given the choice. His lack of awareness of NZ players is just getting worse and worse.

The slipping NZ commentators standards were displayed earlier this year with claims that Santner was failing in ODI for not taking wickets, when career ER 4.95, ave 33.81 and the CDG test bowling gaffes when they kept referring to him and measuring his performances as failing as a batting allrounder, even when he was batting at #8 and opening the bowling with taking wickets at mid 20's. While CDG may not be the best option now, he was a fine selection against South Africa earlier this year, a point the commentators argued against and then just did not want to concede.

Not everyone has to be interested in the NZ cricket players, or even cricket for that matter, but I would have thought that the NZ commentators would take a bit of an interest in the national team, if not the domestic players as well. They have statistician support on call when on air, and prolly a lot of the time when off air. Hopefully Smithy starts cracking the whip and the standards improve.

Bring back Jeff Wilson as a commentator. Even if he only played a handful of games of international cricket, he is an insightful man and passionate about NZ sports. Does he really need a holiday from now until the rugby season starts in March?

Hopefully Kyle Mills and Andre Adams raise the standard of their local player knowledge when the domestic T20 starts.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:51 am

So the farcical NZA game is drawing to a close, but there are some positives.

The Windies are here to play so the series may be more competitive than the last one WI series here was.

Bennett sliced through the Windies with 3 cheap second innings wickets that gives a bit more credibility to the NZ domestic batsmen he has been terrorizing this summer.

Test and ODI hopefuls Bruce and Astle scored runs in the first innings when noone else incl test players Raval and Latham did.

Ferguson taking 7 wickets and will now join the test squad as a reserve for Southee (expecting a child).

Astle bowling at a low er in the second WI innings, thus improving on his first effort.

And Latham and Raval seeing off the new ball in the second innings and having had a good sighter of the WI attack before the tests.

Biggest disappointment to me is Kuggeliejn missing an opportunity due to illness enabling Ferguson's leap frogging him.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:21 am

Watling has been ruled out of the team as a batsman only meaning Niccolls and Blundell are expected to play the first test.

While this encourages Watling to find wicket keeping fitness as soon as possible, I am not convinced that Nicolls is a better test batsman than Watling. At all.

Fergusson is getting good press from Hesson and may well take Southee's place who has a child birth due.

Likely NZ team for 1st test;

Raval
Latham
KW
Taylor
Nicolls
Santner
Blundell
De Grandhomme
Wagner
Southee/Ferguson
Boult

12th Man Matt Henry

NZ still looks very soft in the batting from 5 to 7, 8 as well compared to a normal full strength England team with Ali at 8.

If Ferguson plays, the seam attack looks complete with a swing bowler in Boult, a reverse swing and old ball toiler in Wagner, a firey 150km max in Ferguson, and a nibbler in CDG. Santner's spin will control an E/R anywhere it seems but is typically short of wickets unless the pitch is a Bunsen burner.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:50 am

George Worker with a FC average of 29.68 and a failure for NZA vs the Windies is now the reserve batsman in the Black Caps test squad;

Ahead of -

Munro - FC average over 50, good odi and t20 intl form
Ryder - Proven test player and averaging 117+ this season
Bruce - FC average over 40 and runs vs Windies, proven t20 intl
Watling - Proven test player

Ryder aside - I'm not even going to try and rationalise this selection by Larsen and Hesson except that Worker is an opening bat so either Latham could take Nicholls spot soon or Raval is under extra scrutiny. I doubt its the latter but plunket shield runs have been scarce for Jeets this year.

Personally I am not averse to Latham moving to 5 in the least. I am disapointed that Worker is the next best opening bat option, though.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:27 pm

What happened to Shane Bond ? He was real fast.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:26 pm

bolero wrote:What happened to Shane Bond ? He was real fast.


He's a bowling coach for hire - currently with EWCB Ashes test team, Brisbane Heat and Mumbai Indians.

Most in NZ want him coaching here but NZC don't have the money to compete with his overseas offers.

Southee has declined greatly without him and even Boult is less effective without him. But now Southee gets a few months with him.at Mumbai.

Its not just his coaching - he sets the plans for dismissing batsmen. He is a sore loss for NZC. He did however coach the NZA team in India not long ago, so he's happy to schedule in.NZC stuff when he has the opportunity to.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:28 am

In an insipid and uninspired decision, NZ will play Matt Henry ahead of Lockie Ferguson.

How boring?!

Total waste of an opportunity to see if pace merchant Lockie is upto test cricket.

I'm not even convinced its the safer choice given Lockie's recent form and Henry's new ball nibble reliance.

Kuggs, Lockie, Bennett have to break the selectors out of their comfort zone to ever get a chance it seems.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby bolero » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:07 am

Paddles wrote:
bolero wrote:What happened to Shane Bond ? He was real fast.


He's a bowling coach for hire - currently with EWCB Ashes test team, Brisbane Heat and Mumbai Indians.

Most in NZ want him coaching here but NZC don't have the money to compete with his overseas offers.

Southee has declined greatly without him and even Boult is less effective without him. But now Southee gets a few months with him.at Mumbai.

Its not just his coaching - he sets the plans for dismissing batsmen. He is a sore loss for NZC. He did however coach the NZA team in India not long ago, so he's happy to schedule in.NZC stuff when he has the opportunity to.


I had a dialogue ready for him, ' My name is Bond, Shane Bond'.

He rattled Sehwag with his pace when India were in NZ.

But Bond was very injury prone. A cousin of Zaheer Khan when it came to injuries.

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:07 pm

bolero wrote:
Paddles wrote:
He's a bowling coach for hire - currently with EWCB Ashes test team, Brisbane Heat and Mumbai Indians.

Most in NZ want him coaching here but NZC don't have the money to compete with his overseas offers.

Southee has declined greatly without him and even Boult is less effective without him. But now Southee gets a few months with him.at Mumbai.

Its not just his coaching - he sets the plans for dismissing batsmen. He is a sore loss for NZC. He did however coach the NZA team in India not long ago, so he's happy to schedule in.NZC stuff when he has the opportunity to.


I had a dialogue ready for him, ' My name is Bond, Shane Bond'.

He rattled Sehwag with his pace when India were in NZ.

But Bond was very injury prone. A cousin of Zaheer Khan when it came to injuries.


ICL meant even more missed games for NZ by him. Injuries brought on early retirement.

But its his coaching NZC misses now - not his playing.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:22 am

A certain irony is the worse Santner bats, the more selection pressure suffered by CDG.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:19 pm

Dup
Last edited by Paddles on Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:20 pm

CDG with a 100 now puts selection pressure back on Santner.

For those that are confused:

Colin Munro averages over 50 with bat in FC but is not as a good bowler as CDG who bats at a 35 ave. Munro would strengthen NZ batting at 6 but weaken the bowling as a 5th option compared to CDG. Hesson has told Munro that he wants him bowling as he is more useful than a part timer (Hesson doesn 't appear to trust Munro's batting over Niccolls).

Todd Astle, a leggie and former opening bat has been Santner's biggest challenger for spin bowling allrounder since Santner usurped Mark Craig (he also displaced Sodhi as #2 odi spinner in India but was injured and replaced). Astle made runs vs WI in the NZA game as all eyes are on Santner as a test #6 with many fans opining it is too high for him at the moment.

These allrounders and allrounder positions are more inter-dependant than any other team selection.

The curveball for both Santner and CDG is if a non-all rounder spinner starts pressing claims such as Sodhi or A Patel. This would bring Munro back into #6 dynamics as best bat if #8 is a weak bat- but CDG when 2 spinners (esp where at least one is an AR like Santner or Astle) play with his opening bowling option with Boult and with Wags at change is safer as CDG is best seam allrounder bowler. If both Sodhi and A Patel play - CDG's bowling vs Munro's batting if 5 bowling options are wanted must be re-weighed again but a lost toss and possibly bowling day 1 still favours CDG here as 3 seamers min would be wanted outside Asia in most these scenarios.

Clear as mud? Welcome to balancing 5 bowlers with a strong batting order.

If Kuggs could displace Southee as opening bowler on bowling merit alone - his batting ability could lessen the weighting of these issues and even if not - provide a stern batting tail.
Last edited by Paddles on Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby raja » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:10 pm

What happened to Corey Anderson? Injured? Or out of favour?

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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:16 pm

raja wrote:What happened to Corey Anderson? Injured? Or out of favour?


Both in a way.

His back injury stopped him bowling and let CDG in the door but Corey's red ball bowling wasn't test standard even if he batted better than he actually did in tests. CDG right now has him beat in both roles.

Corey's bowling is far more effective in whiteball as is his batting. But his batting has been falling away here of late too.

Long story short - Corey's future intl whiteball caree r is more likely to be resurrected and sooner than his test. CDG is much less of a whiteball bowling threat to Corey.

Corey bowls good odi back of a length and short lengths which are not a wicket taking threat in test. Slow tempo batting doesn't suit his batting in tests unlike whiteball's scoring pressures that keep him being proactive with the bat.

Personally I do not like nor want Cory as I know him to play near the test team, at all. Whiteball if and when he regains form is another matter. This is where his utility strengths shine due to his boundary hitting , high battingsr potential and back of a length bowling takes wickets with batsmen looking to score swiftly.

Before you ask - Neesham's bowling with red and whiteball is not upto standard before it is factored that his batting is beaten by spin far too easily on turning pitches. But he smashes seamers with ease.

Corey in some ways can be likened to a modern Simon Odonnell - wins whiteball games with ar skills but not suited for test with either bat or ball. CDG is still finding his way in 50 over esp for any role.

The more interesting question is whether CDG will ever find a way to succesfully translate his red ball batting abilities to 50 over whiteball. In white ball - CDG could just bowl out early pitching a nibling fuller line and length as I keep suggesting whereas Cory is a good and valid death option as well as an early pitch up swing option giving him better whiteball bowling utility.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:33 am

Ford Trophy

- Most Runs

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_career.html?id=12047;type=tournament

Most Wickets

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/most_wickets_career.html?id=12047;type=tournament

Best E/R

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/best_career_economy_rate.html?id=12047;type=tournament

Usual suspect Jesse Ryder continues to troll NZ cricket fans with good performances year in and out.

Colin Munro broke some records in his innings of 174* off 118 where he got into some verbal with Ben Stokes. Colin definitely having the better day out.

What is noticable to me while Santner struggles for runs at test level, is 2 tidy 50's compiled by Todd Astle with some good economic and wicket taking bowling. Astle got through 10 overs against Munro in his 174 blitzkreig, and went for only 54 runs and took a wicket. While Santner position in the ODI team very safe with great E/R against top opposition since 2015; Astle while competing with Ish Sodhi for the second ODI spinner role, could also put some pressure on Santner's test role.

Tom Bruce averaging over 40 and close to 100 SR is again Mr Consistent, but he may need to put up some huge numbers to get into the ODI team ahead of Niccolls and usurp Worker on the test and ODI reserves - consistency and looking elegant in t20i, even in India, isn't doing it so far.

Distant Black Cap hopeful Chapman has scored some easy runs for Auckland in down hill ski chases where the back of the chase had already been broken.
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Re: Land of the Long White Cloud - NZ Cricket thread

Postby Paddles » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:21 am

I'm rather displeased by the level of criticism Jeet Raval is facing for having not scored a century after 8 tests and 5 50's from 13 innings.

The guy averages 44.58 in tests without a ton, so he has been remarkably consistent.

Latham doesn't even average 39, and despite his 6 tons, he has no centuries vs SA, Aus, Ind or Engl but 2 against Zimbabwe. Guptil doesn't even get to a 30 average and no centuries at opener neither.

Further, Raval scores so slowly, that he is making the batting to follow bat against a much older and softer ball, and a less energetic bowling attack. Its a 5 day game, so this is a legitimate and good tactic as NZ have plenty of swift scorers to follow in the order.

Want to know how good he is at this role? 8/13 he has batted for more than 2 hours. 10/13 for 1 hour. 13/13 for 30 minutes. This is brilliant stuff.

If Jeet Raval continued with his consistency and didn't score a ton, I wouldn't drop him unless the top order was full of players at Ross Taylor or Kane Williamson's talent and output, as well as missing out on selection.

Personally, I am more worried about Latham opening and suspect that he may be better down below. But there isn't a young opening bat talent in FC cricket demanding selection yet, despite however many NZ tours and now home series that George Worker gets selected for.
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