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Postby Paddles » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:56 am

not judging but you live in England, why you want many of your population to be upset at losing?
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:45 am

Exactly my thoughts.
I live in USA and I support it in every international sport cheering it, mixed emotions only when they play India. As both have completely different sports choices they never see a face off. I might be cheering for winner ;) To avoid Awkward moment in front of my kid, I won’t show & act neutral. I know some muslims supporting Pakistan even their home country is playing against Pakistan. Raja is another one of those who support other team whoever play against BCCI. Meh.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby raja » Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:39 pm

Ok, before someone pounces on me, let me clarify that it isn't like Aussies of the 1970s were goody-goody, no-sledging boys.
Certainly not - but Indians didn't have much exposure to that side of Australia.
For one, TV wasn't that common in India - it was mostly radio.

Secondly, for us Indians, England was the team to beat cos we used to get thrashed by England regularly.
So we used to warm towards any team that beat England. :-)
Australia did that, West Indies did that - and we warmed to these teams.

It was much later that the dynamics completely changed.

So the way Indians of the 1990s generation (and later) look at Australia is likely different from the way guys of my generation look at Australia.

I know I'm generalising here, but I think Atul and I think similarly on this subject.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Daanav » Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:47 pm

Paddles wrote:not judging but you live in England, why you want many of your population to be upset at losing?


That is not an easy question to answer but I will try. Let us start right now and go backward in time.

As you know, I am of Indian origin and so discuss cricket with a lot of my Indian acquaintances. They all support India but what is rather odd (but nice) is that about 70% actively do not support England. I know a lot of people from the subcontinent (India, Pakistan etc) who support Australia during the Ashes.

That last point goes back quite a long way. When I was a youngster in the 60s and early 70s, we used to listen to Ashes cricket commentary on the radio and follow it in the local newspapers. In those days, coverage of any Test cricket in newspapers was quite extensive. For example, there was a lot of interest in India when the Australians toured the West Indies in 1966. Growing up following the Ashes, ALL my friends supported Australia against England for reasons I am not quite clear. Maybe there was still a bit of fallout from the Raj...or fascination because Oz was Bradman's country. In the late 60s, Doug Walters was one of the most talked about foreign cricketers in India.

One of those things. I have never supported England in either cricket or football and confess to celebrating when Germany beat England in the latter. But so do a lot of Welsh and Scottish people. It is a complicated psyche.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:33 pm

Daanav wrote:
Paddles wrote:not judging but you live in England, why you want many of your population to be upset at losing?


That is not an easy question to answer but I will try. Let us start right now and go backward in time.

As you know, I am of Indian origin and so discuss cricket with a lot of my Indian acquaintances. They all support India but what is rather odd (but nice) is that about 70% actively do not support England. I know a lot of people from the subcontinent (India, Pakistan etc) who support Australia during the Ashes.

That last point goes back quite a long way. When I was a youngster in the 60s and early 70s, we used to listen to Ashes cricket commentary on the radio and follow it in the local newspapers. In those days, coverage of any Test cricket in newspapers was quite extensive. For example, there was a lot of interest in India when the Australians toured the West Indies in 1966. Growing up following the Ashes, ALL my friends supported Australia against England for reasons I am not quite clear. Maybe there was still a bit of fallout from the Raj...or fascination because Oz was Bradman's country. In the late 60s, Doug Walters was one of the most talked about foreign cricketers in India.

One of those things. I have never supported England in either cricket or football and confess to celebrating when Germany beat England in the latter. But so do a lot of Welsh and Scottish people. It is a complicated psyche.


Celts commonly hate the English. Soctland wants independence and the IRA bombed England. But Celts are British, not English... makes sense for them. Sounds like you hate the Raj coloniser while enjoying the benefits of now living in the Kingdom. I am sure that's wrong. But its an argument.

I mean - the country let you in, let become rich and wealthy, its a bit odd to harbour colonical resentment. The Welsh, Irish and Scots, they're still conquered to be honest... they have an excuse....

Sorry - I know there's a lot of problems in the UK history, I just think its retarded a country you hate so much let you in and gave you citizenship with a healthy pension... Sounds bad right? This is the mirror argument to yous. Love India. Live there... (It's the same bad argument).
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:40 pm

I am trolling with the above, but when we get to the point citizen support Germany over England in football, migration is an issue? If they are born or move there are kids like Daa, and still would rather a foreign country beat them, and enjoy it, how do we remedy migration to patriotism meaning something or does it never? Cos if people are just moving for the money, and never love the people or feel as one, is it an issue? Are countries just jobs now. And if countries are just jobs - what is intl sport bar franchises. And if they are franchises - why do they not all have the same money already BCCI...

I mean - i have two passports. NZ and Uk. I am NZ first, and UK second. In everything. I find it really easy. Daa has an India and UK passport, and is never England....

If migrants cannot support the countries they move to... what do we do...
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:46 pm

To be clear, I love Neil Wagner in an Afrikaans accent say he is a kiwi. I do. I love Lydia Ko say the same thing. But when they want the country they've lived in for 50 years to lose...
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:03 pm

If NZ and England play each other who do you support?
If they are not facing off each would you automatically support England in everything else?
Does it spill to politics too?
Where do you stand on Brexit? Do you think like British or kiwi or European or impartial outsider on this ?

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:19 pm

Paddles wrote:If migrants cannot support the countries they move to... what do we do...


I am totally with you on it.

I hear about these “asylum seekers” who say they escaped from “religious oppression” then come to some other country on humanitarian & compassionate grounds then once settled they won’t blend in, but do acts of disrespecting laws of the land, demand own personal/religious laws, demand sharia law etc, demand different dress code, demand all others also to follow “their dress code beliefs”, if not commit crime, perform scare mongering tactics, occupy streets every week disrupting traffic, create panic in neighborhoods, involve in vandalism towards property of people of other faiths, develop no-go zones as a punishment of giving asylum to them, act as if uniform civil code of conduct does not apply just because you have a different religious beliefs etc sure would make life miserable for people of other faith especially if they are also a minority, who would be caught in cross fire and become collateral damage. Oh yeah. You need lie detector tests at all immigration offices to be asked for all the above questions before granting asylum.
— end of rant —

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Daanav » Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:40 pm

Paddles wrote: Sounds like you hate the Raj coloniser while enjoying the benefits of now living in the Kingdom. I am sure that's wrong. But its an argument.

I mean - the country let you in, let become rich and wealthy, its a bit odd to harbour colonical resentment. The Welsh, Irish and Scots, they're still conquered to be honest... they have an excuse....

Sorry - I know there's a lot of problems in the UK history, I just think its retarded a country you hate so much let you in and gave you citizenship with a healthy pension... Sounds bad right. This is the mirror argument to yous. Love India - get an Indian pension. Live there...


Paddles, you have got it all completely and utterly askew.

First of all, although I am ethnically Indian, I was born in Chelmsford, Essex but taken to India when I was 8 months old. I was taken to India by my foster parents (It is complicated and so don't ask...at least not now) and grew-up first in Mangalore (4 years) and then Bangalore (24 years). Bangalore is therefore effectively my hometown.

In January 1985 I came to the UK with my wife and have lived here since. We both consider ourselves as British, lived and worked here, own property here and, as you say, have a good pension. Far from hating the British, I think it is a very good country to live in, except for the quirky weather. I get on very well with my British colleagues and friends and in fact feel sometimes uncomfortable with the somewhat overbearing attitude of people from India (I think Going South will understand what that means). Although we own a fully furnished duplex flat in Bangalore which we plan to use for 3-month winter stay, I feel uncomfortable at the prospect because I am too used to the lifestyle here and have trouble adjusting whenever I go "home".

BUT, all that is as far as professional, social and personal life goes. SPORT in my mind is very very different. While I like the British attitude in most things, theirs in sport annoys me no end. Irrespective of which sport it is - football, cricket, Tennis, Formula 1 - there is always the subtle hint that they are superior and always an excuse for losing. The trouble is that if you are an outsider - Indian, American or anything else - you won't see it but those of us who live here can read between the lines. That is why I and a lot of others with subcontinental connections will never support UK or England in any sport.

PS: I fully agree with Going South's post on immigrants

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:25 am

Daanav wrote:
Paddles wrote: Sounds like you hate the Raj coloniser while enjoying the benefits of now living in the Kingdom. I am sure that's wrong. But its an argument.

I mean - the country let you in, let become rich and wealthy, its a bit odd to harbour colonical resentment. The Welsh, Irish and Scots, they're still conquered to be honest... they have an excuse....

Sorry - I know there's a lot of problems in the UK history, I just think its retarded a country you hate so much let you in and gave you citizenship with a healthy pension... Sounds bad right. This is the mirror argument to yous. Love India - get an Indian pension. Live there...


Paddles, you have got it all completely and utterly askew.

First of all, although I am ethnically Indian
, I was born in Chelmsford, Essex but taken to India when I was 8 months old. I was taken to India by my foster parents (It is complicated and so don't ask...at least not now) and grew-up first in Mangalore (4 years) and then Bangalore (24 years). Bangalore is therefore effectively my hometown.

In January 1985 I came to the UK with my wife and have lived here since. We both consider ourselves as British, lived and worked here, own property here and, as you say, have a good pension. Far from hating the British, I think it is a very good country to live in, except for the quirky weather. I get on very well with my British colleagues and friends and in fact feel sometimes uncomfortable with the somewhat overbearing attitude of people from India (I think Going South will understand what that means). Although we own a fully furnished duplex flat in Bangalore which we plan to use for 3-month winter stay, I feel uncomfortable at the prospect because I am too used to the lifestyle here and have trouble adjusting whenever I go "home".

BUT, all that is as far as professional, social and personal life goes. SPORT in my mind is very very different. While I like the British attitude in most things, theirs in sport annoys me no end. Irrespective of which sport it is - football, cricket, Tennis, Formula 1 - there is always the subtle hint that they are superior and always an excuse for losing. The trouble is that if you are an outsider - Indian, American or anything else - you won't see it but those of us who live here can read between the lines. That is why I and a lot of others with subcontinental connections will never support UK or England in any sport.

PS: I fully agree with Going South's post on immigrants


I never once raised ethnicity. I raised passports and nationality.

You missed my point. Entirely. And defended your point with ethinicty. But there is not ethinicity passports.

All I hear, is you want the countyr you were born in to lose. THe country you live in to lose. The country that gives you a pension to lose.

I see this as an issue, that society needs to resolve.


I'm not saying you're to blame. But it doesn't seem right to me.

You hate them and their, but accept their pension. You accept their medicince. Their pounds. Its all us and them. But htey gave you a better life. But you you're not one of them....

Do you only live there for the money? Why not leave, there now (England pensions are global). If you hate the people so much and love money more, why dont you leave? You love BCCI more. You need this English pension to hate those that pay for it? While hating England fans who pay for it. Yeah you have a huge issue here.

And if they pay better the pension, why are the workers paying for your pension when you hate their country? I dont get it....

What more did the UK need to do for you... to make you love them? If nothing, should they have sent you to India instead? I mean - are you drawing a UK pension right now?

Please say no. I dont want to hear how you heat and steal from the starving Uk citizens, and eat better than a starving kid in Chennai while hating England and supporting India.

Im over over your hypocrisy. Tbh.
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:38 am

Ugly right?

You cash that pension. You enjoy that-health care. And you want the country to lose?

Ugly def. But not just me.


If you hate them this much - give them back their pension money... srsly

Or be grateful. Noob.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby raja » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:39 am

I don't know - this is getting a bit like that Kohli clip where he said, if you support other countries' players, go to that country.

By that logic, since I don't support BCCI, I shouldn't live in India?

Heck, I do love India, the country (despite its many faultlines).

But that doesn't mean I HAVE to support it in sports too.

I've always tended to support the underdog - which is one reason why, as BCCI has got better and better at cricket, I am less and less keen to support it.

When BCCI plays Bangladesh, I support Bangladesh - cos the sheer joy of seeing Bangladeshis' faces when they have beaten India is special. It means a LOT to them. Far more than beating Bangladesh means to Indians.

When Pakistan used to regularly beat India in the 1980s (when they were a much better side than India), I staunchly supported India.

But today, when India is so much stronger, I support Pakistan - cos they are the underdogs.

Does that mean I am anti-national?

I hope not.

----
This whole nationalism debate, which is especially MASSIVE in India right now, thanks to a current highly-nationalistic government and elections approaching, has me confused - and worried.

Personally, I think a nation is just a tag, like a religion.

You identify with a nation, like you identify with a religion.

It helps bond with others of that nation/religion - but it also helps "othering".

Which is why I don't care about belonging to any particular nation or religion.

----

Coming to pensions, benefits etc.

I agree that you owe some allegiance to the State that gives you benefits.

So yes, I agree that if you're an immigrant, you have to acknowledge that you've got benefits from the State that has allowed you to immigrate, and live a life that would normally be better than the life you were otherwise living. (Otherwise you'd have left already).

This also means that you show gratitude by not indulging in any anti-national activity, promoting hatred against your adopted country.

You cannot migrate from Syria to the UK, get benefits from the UK - and then bad-mouth UK. (I differentiate between a country and its government. It is ALWAYS fine for me to question/criticize a government policy - even an immigrant should be allowed to do so. But bad-mouthing a country so as to promote hatred towards it is something else).

But does this gratitude necessarily mean you have to support your adopted country in sports as well?

If I say yes, it means what I do by not supporting BCCI in cricket against other teams is wrong.

I don't think sports should be taken as a serious barometer for a person's love for a country.

I can love a country - and not support it in sports, for a whole host of reasons. Like for me with BCCI. Or maybe there's a Swiss guy who doesn't like Federer and therefore wants him to lose.

Am not saying "this is how it should or shouldn't be". Am just saying these are my thoughts about loving a country, nationalism and sports.

If you think I've got it wrong, feel free to challenge/critique my points.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby raja » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:57 am

Btw, I used to know some Dutch folks who didn't support the Dutch football team. :-)
Not immigrant Dutch, but those born in NL, who lived all their lives there.
They liked the style of other teams, like Brazil.
They were Dutch in every other respect, paying their taxes, getting State benefits et al. :-)
Just that they didn't like the Dutch football team.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:40 am

raja wrote:Btw, I used to know some Dutch folks who didn't support the Dutch football team. :-)
Not immigrant Dutch, but those born in NL, who lived all their lives there.
They liked the style of other teams, like Brazil.
They were Dutch in every other respect, paying their taxes, getting State benefits et al. :-)
Just that they didn't like the Dutch football team.


they were probably lefties, globalists who didn't believe in the nation state

The Dutch should be grateful for their nation state. They fought against a globalist force in WWII to preserve their nation state. Now many of them are willing to hand it over to the same mob without a shot being fired or a bike being stolen :)

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Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:02 am

in peace times, Not every citizen of a country need to join the army to show their patriotism.
A simple act of waving country flag to cheer their nationals at venue like olympics is enough to show that you love your country & show support your country men/women who representing your nation at the world stage as flag bearers.

You need not be a sports person to do this simple act of love towards your country, you need not even know about intricacies/rules of the game these sports players represent, but a simple act of cheer is enough.

When 90% of country follow this suit of support thy nation, it would be an insult to thier faith & love when the other 10% show dissent and support others against your own for trivial reasons as a ruse. You need to respect feelings of others and keep your hatred to yourself. Don’t show hatred. Show only Love.

It’s similar to shouting Buttler is the killer before start of a movie in a packed movie theater. Those are the sadistic perverts. Those are the people who are so self obsessed with ideology of my way being high way. Those are the people that occupy seats reserved for elderly & won’t get up. Entitlement is in their blood. Everything need to be given to them on a platter without any contribution from them. They would occupy streets & public places to perform their personal religious prayers, even the middle of roads on a busy day, let the traffic go to dogs. Those are the people who blare loud speakers of religious call of prayer 5 times a day in a place where people of other religions live. Those are the people that cheering for your country is of least importance. Being neutral is below their selfish agenda but are perverted further to cheer for other teams instead. Those are people that distribute sweets to strangers and burst fireworks when the country losses to a rival, be it soldiers fighting war against terrorists at the border or a cricket match. Those are the people that are happy when some natural or man made disaster happen in the country. Virat Kohli’s anger is aimed at those people, justifiably so. Get out!!!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby raja » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:01 pm

Just because 90% of the country behaves in a particular manner, why should the remaining 10% follow suit?
Each person is an individual in his/her own right, with his/her own mind.

The determinant is not majoritarian action, but moral or ethical action, IMO.

If sth is immoral, even if 99% of the population agrees with it, it remains immoral.
I'd support that 1% which dissents.

During Hitler's time, a vast majority of Germans were so brainwashed by him, that they hero-worshipped him and supported him.
Many of them didn't even know what exactly was going on, so effective was Nazi propaganda.

Would you say that since the majority were WITH Hitler, the rest (minority) should also have been with Hitler?

Each person has a mind of his own - and should be encouraged to use it to judge for himself/herself.

Not blindly follow someone else.

What is important is ethics.

If I support Pakistan in an India-Pakistan cricket match, is what I am doing unethical or immoral?

Again here, I'm not using the term "moral" in the religious sense of the term - as the Church or any scriptures might define morality.

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Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:15 pm

If not supporting, stay neutral.
Doing the opposite of love & support = HATE

If you support Pakistan would you stop at cricket only is the question.

I even question your integrity on where you stand based on your sports preference as I now doubt you on your allegiance to country as 90% of those that support the other nation are ANTI NATIONALS. so by association you are one of those questionable people.

If you proved that your views are just for sports but support the nation on everything else (which is rare) then you would then a SADIST who get pleasure at ridiculing & insulting other just for kicks, that you actually don’t really care for team sports.

If Pakistan are world champions that win every match & every game, best team in the world, there is some logic, but it’s not the case, so that leaves only hatred.

Do you know that people support Pakistan just for they belong to religion only? If Pakistan is not a Muslim nation many don’t bother to support it. If your support is for non cricketing reasons, then you are same as those other haters. Hope you are not one of those.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:30 pm

Going South wrote:in peace times, Not every citizen of a country need to join the army to show their patriotism.
A simple act of waving country flag to cheer their nationals at venue like olympics is enough to show that you love your country & show support your country men/women who representing your nation at the world stage as flag bearers.

You need not be a sports person to do this simple act of love towards your country, you need not even know about intricacies/rules of the game these sports players represent, but a simple act of cheer is enough.

When 90% of country follow this suit of support thy nation, it would be an insult to thier faith & love when the other 10% show dissent and support others against your own for trivial reasons as a ruse. You need to respect feelings of others and keep your hatred to yourself. Don’t show hatred. Show only Love.

It’s similar to shouting Buttler is the killer before start of a movie in a packed movie theater. Those are the sadistic perverts. Those are the people who are so self obsessed with ideology of my way being high way. Those are the people that occupy seats reserved for elderly & won’t get up. Entitlement is in their blood. Everything need to be given to them on a platter without any contribution from them. They would occupy streets & public places to perform their personal religious prayers, even the middle of roads on a busy day, let the traffic go to dogs. Those are the people who blare loud speakers of religious call of prayer 5 times a day in a place where people of other religions live. Those are the people that cheering for your country is of least importance. Being neutral is below their selfish agenda but are perverted further to cheer for other teams instead. Those are people that distribute sweets to strangers and burst fireworks when the country losses to a rival, be it soldiers fighting war against terrorists at the border or a cricket match. Those are the people that are happy when some natural or man made disaster happen in the country. Virat Kohli’s anger is aimed at those people, justifiably so. Get out!!!


This is coming from the biggest hardcore patriot on this forum :lol:

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:33 pm

raja wrote:During Hitler's time, a vast majority of Germans were so brainwashed by him, that they hero-worshipped him and supported him.
Many of them didn't even know what exactly was going on, so effective was Nazi propaganda.


risk of going off topic, but its no different now other than the fact it isn't a single person the majority are enamored by...its an establishment of continuous government and media apparatus

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby raja » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:36 pm

It's all about ethics.
If a Hindu mob is beating up a Muslim, I will be on the Muslim's side.
But if a Muslim mob is beating up a Hindu, I will be on the Hindu's side.

I think any decent human being would, right?

If India launches an unethical attack on Pakistan, I will be on Pakistan's side.
If Pakistan launches an unethical attack on India, I will be on India's side.

Simple.

Granted that each person might have his/her own definition of what's ethical or moral - I will just use my own judgment. :grin:

So it's nothing to do with India or Pakistan, Hindu or Muslim.

It's to do with ethical or unethical, moral or immoral.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:44 pm

Going South wrote:If NZ and England play each other who do you support?
If they are not facing off each would you automatically support England in everything else?
Does it spill to politics too?
Where do you stand on Brexit? Do you think like British or kiwi or European or impartial outsider on this ?

NZ first then Britain. its really easy. I feel more connected to NZ, then the next.

Automatically support England? In sport? Most often. Almost every single time. I know there's issues with England's past. I wont see eye to eye with everyone on Ireland issues to be honest. Even my father and I have a few differences there. He's English pure. Not Kiwi. (but he loves NZ - that's my issue - why are people not loving where they live?).

Brexit i dont care about. I think its anti migration driven vote, but as an outcome, I dont mind either way.

I think Kiwi first. I am kiwi. But I love Britain. I feel partly British. What many colonies dont understand is that NZ is basically England down under. It was set up as England's farm. In all honesty. It was not a prison. And the Brits migrated here. We're "south sea poms". We are. We kept the Union Jack on our flag.

I loathe racism. I love ehtnic minorities. I have no issues with migration happening. But if you hate the place you're from to the point, despite being born there, you want them to lose everything, just leave. Go be where you love.

Migrants can still love their homelands more. No issue. It's not about who you love more. This is about who you dislike...

Brits invent sports. They dont win at them. Name one sport they did. Its not tennis. Its not cricket. Its not even rugby. Let alone soccer... There's no superiority complex there. The only superiority complex that can be had against the English is the Empire... All I see is an inferiority complex...

If you're born somewhere. Lived 65+ years somewhere. Borrn, worked and retired, what more needs to happen for you before you feel like you are from there and want them to win?
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:07 pm

I often find myself at cross roads over recent anti immigration drive in USA and my support is 50-50 towards Trump policies as an undecided voter category. Often I lean to what Is best for America in general as my stand. I support trump in his efforts to build a wall on south. Last election I faced ton of questions on many issues, it’s like an exam paper. ;) you need to be educated on current affairs to answer them with knowledge but it’s shocking many voters don’t know abcs of issues yet decide the outcome. I say there should be basic exam of know-how what is what, only those pass that exam are allowed to vote in favor or against a law amendment.

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Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:15 pm

Errr. English sure show superiority complex over all other people of the world. They look down on Americans too So often get mocked at. ;) we find British “accent” funny. Ha! Racism still exist in Britain today, but a little percentage improvement every decade.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:28 pm

Going South wrote:Errr. English sure show superiority complex over all other people of the world. They look down on Americans too So often get mocked at. ;) we find British “accent” funny. Ha! Racism still exist in Britain today, but a little percentage improvement every decade.


Racism exists. Racism is real.

This is not about racism. English, USA, CAN, NZ - we're guilty af over racism. Aus has taken it to new heights tbh.

This is about NATIONALITY, not ETHNICITY....

But I've asked him before about racism. And he said no...

So why? Why want HIS country (not race, not even religion or anything else) to lose? Cos it is HIS Country. It really is. Now if it's politics, say it's politcs. Raja loathes BCCI politcs. He says his reasons. It's not simply he wants to see sad faces the next day. Whether Daa likes or not, he's English. It's who he is. He's bringing up ethnicity. This is now his prejudice, not everyone elses...

It's not about what you love more. We dont all get what we want and we settle. It's not about what you prefer cos of the earlier. You dont even have to lvoe where you're from. It's not a pre-req. But this is about taking pleasure in your countrymen's losing... There's something not right about this.

Now if its purely ethnic, go with that. I have no issues there. Get tribal, We're allowed. It's good, even. But don't make it national when its your own country that has done you well...

Because - and this is true - if you truly hate racism, you hate the victims of racism being racist themselves.... But we're allowed to be tribal... That's fine. If he wants ethnic Indians to win more than his national Englishmen - that's fine.

But when you want your country to suffer more and lose - and it's not even tribal, what is it? Is it prejudism? Cos that's is what I picking up here...
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:50 pm, edited 8 times in total.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Daanav » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:37 pm

Can I ask a question? What has all this got to do with the World Cup? We are all straying so far from the topic that pretty soon there’ll be an argument about supporting the Costa Rican handball team.
Just for the record, I know a group of Aussies who have lived in England for years and my only support every England opponent in cricket but criticise the UK for most other things, something that I would never dream of doing. Nobody asks THEM to go home but as a poor immigrant, I suppose I have to bow, scrape and be thankful for beings allowed to live in relative peace. So what is bit of racial discrimination among friends? I have to be thick skinned, grin and bear it just because some patronising moron thinks that is good idea.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Sun Apr 14, 2019 3:54 pm

Paddles wrote:
Going South wrote:Errr. English sure show superiority complex over all other people of the world. They look down on Americans too So often get mocked at. ;) we find British “accent” funny. Ha! Racism still exist in Britain today, but a little percentage improvement every decade.


Racism exists. Racism is real.

This is not about racism. English, USA, CAN, NZ - we're guilty af over racism. Aus has taken it to new heights tbh.

This is about NATIONALITY, not ETHNICITY....

But I've asked him before about racism. And he said no...

So why? Why want HIS country (not race, not even religion or anything else) to lose? Cos it is HIS Country. It really is. Now if it's politics, say it's politcs. Raja loathes BCCI politcs. He says his reasons. It's not simply he wants to see sad faces the next day. Whether Daa likes or not, he's English. It's who he is. He's bringing up ethnicity. This is now his prejudice, not everyone elses...

It's not about what you love more. We dont all get what we want and we settle. It's not about what you prefer cos of the earlier. You dont even have to lvoe where you're from. It's not a pre-req. But this is about taking pleasure in your countrymen's losing... There's something not right about this.

Now if its purely ethnic, go with that. I have no issues there. Get tribal, We're allowed. It's good, even. But don't make it national when its your own country that has done you well...

Because - and this is true - if you truly hate racism, you hate the victims of racism being racist themselves.... But we're allowed to be tribal... That's fine. If he wants ethnic Indians to win more than his national Englishmen - that's fine.

But when you want your country to suffer more and lose - and it's not even tribal, what is it? Is it prejudism? Cos that's is what I picking up here...


wtf are you on about

you've never even been outside of NZ

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:02 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Racism exists. Racism is real.

This is not about racism. English, USA, CAN, NZ - we're guilty af over racism. Aus has taken it to new heights tbh.

This is about NATIONALITY, not ETHNICITY....

But I've asked him before about racism. And he said no...

So why? Why want HIS country (not race, not even religion or anything else) to lose? Cos it is HIS Country. It really is. Now if it's politics, say it's politcs. Raja loathes BCCI politcs. He says his reasons. It's not simply he wants to see sad faces the next day. Whether Daa likes or not, he's English. It's who he is. He's bringing up ethnicity. This is now his prejudice, not everyone elses...

It's not about what you love more. We dont all get what we want and we settle. It's not about what you prefer cos of the earlier. You dont even have to lvoe where you're from. It's not a pre-req. But this is about taking pleasure in your countrymen's losing... There's something not right about this.

Now if its purely ethnic, go with that. I have no issues there. Get tribal, We're allowed. It's good, even. But don't make it national when its your own country that has done you well...

Because - and this is true - if you truly hate racism, you hate the victims of racism being racist themselves.... But we're allowed to be tribal... That's fine. If he wants ethnic Indians to win more than his national Englishmen - that's fine.

But when you want your country to suffer more and lose - and it's not even tribal, what is it? Is it prejudism? Cos that's is what I picking up here...


wtf are you on about

you've never even been outside of NZ


Of course I havn't. And of course I don't have a migrant father. Never met a migrant step father. Never met a migrant. Never been friends with one. I know nothing about migration, at all. Oh wait - where are my great grandparents from? Where were my grandparents from?" Oh wait - NZ is a migrant country.... They were migrants...

Katto - this is your weakest ad hominem yet.

I'm an idealist. I love migrants. I just want migrants to love migration too.

But I have never been outside of NZ....
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby raja » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:19 pm

I really think we're making too big a deal about sports being a determinant of one's love for a country.
I could've understood the uproar if Daanav had harboured, or promoted, hate against England.
But, like he says, he's happy being there and doesn't bear any ill-will towards the country.
The only thing is, he doesn't support it in sports.
And he gives his reasons for that.
Now one might not agree with those reasons, but that's each person's perception of what bothers him.

Like I am bothered by BCCI's politics - GS is not.
At the most, he might consider it an irritant, but for me, it is enough to put me off supporting BCCI & Indian cricket.

So I really think we need to cut Daanav some slack here.

For a person living in England to not support England in sports isn't really SUCH a big deal, IMO.
Like I said in my example earlier, I know Dutch folks, born and brought up in the Netherlands, living there, enjoying benefits (and paying taxes too, of course), who don't care about the Dutch football team and don't support it either. They'd support Brazil in a Brazil-Netherlands game.
I wouldn't say they are not loyal to their country based on just this.

Supporting a team (or not supporting it) is purely a personal choice.
If I were to be judged on this yardstick, I'd be considered traitor and anti-national long ago. :-)

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Daanav » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:37 pm

Paddles wrote:
But I have never been outside of NZ....

Then how can you consider yourself qualified to opinionate about the situation in another country?
I have lived in the UK since 1985 but ha be also travelled extensively. I can tell you one thing about being a ‘coloured ‘ person living in modern UK. It is one of the World’s worst places of PASSIVE RACISM, which I find far more infuriating than open racism. I can tell you that the British are experts in fostering that “us and them” feeling that you spoke about while not really appearing to do so. You would not know that in cities and large towns but it is very much prevalent in the rural areas. We have lived in a small community for 21 years and thus far, not one of our 8 neighbors have even spoken to us. We tried to break the ice soon after arrival but they all ignored us and still do. Every Christmas, without fail, we put cards through their mail slots and so far, not one has responded.
Later we learned that they did not want non- Caucasians in their midst. Most rural people do not mind ethnic minority people living in the UK as long as it is in London, Birmingham or Manchester.

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Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:29 pm

Raja is put off by BCCI politics but not by PCB politics or ECB politics or CA politics? WTF. Don’t you dare say there is no politics in other cricket boards but you can only see it in BCCI switch your allegiance to another country? Can’t decide that reverse racist thought or pure hatred ?

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:37 pm

Katto wrote:wtf are you on about

you've never even been outside of NZ


If that’s true, I am with Katto on this one. Reading about it online & BS on forums is one thing, experiencing it first hand is totally different ballgame. You got to visit Middle East to see what real racism is, man they sure are Up there in it and do it so openly. Every visitor is a kaffir for them and are treated with contempt. Try living like a hindu or Christian in Pakistan. I agree with Daanav in English attitude. In relation American are far more open and treat all as equals with strict laws that support diversity. Much better place to live indeed in comparison.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Daanav » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:46 pm

I have to confess and say that in my 34 years in the UK as an adult, I have experienced active racial hatred abuse only on one occasion and that was by a drunken yob on the streets of London and so of no consequence. But There are plenty of examples of passive racism, something that is prevalent in all levels in UK despite denials by self-styled do-gooders.

I can give you a few personal examples. Make what you will of those:

In 1989 I was working in Kidderminster and had applied for 2 weeks leave to visit my wife's relatives in India well in advance. This was approved and so we booked flight tickets etc. Then literally 5 days before departure, my English colleague apologised for my leave getting cancelled. I did not know what she was talking about till the department head, who had approved my own leave 2 months ago, nonchalantly told me that we Indians were always visiting family in India (it was my first visit in 4 years) and could do it any time whereas MT, the colleague, had to go now because it was the skiing season which would soon be over! She brushed aside my protest but fortunately an Egyptian senior colleague protested strongly on my behalf and had enough influence to confirm my holiday. But the flipside was that upon my return I became persona non grata in the department and had to soon leave for another job.

The owner of a Bed & Breakfast in Ambleside, Lake District, was extremely rude to my elderly mother-in-law because she said that she declined the eggs in a pre-prepared breakfast because she was vegetarian. We had told them this beforehand and she never made a fuss but was told that people like her should stay at home and not visit places outside. This became an official complaint and we eventually received a written apology from the man's wife.

My wife and are both professionals and have always preferred living in small rural suburbs, typically the sort of places into which "white flight" takes place. As we discovered, places like that do not like non-while families moving in and do everything in their power including conspiring with the local Estate Agents to avoid the likes of us as neighbours. This is very common in the UK but is easily swept under the carpet by the 'old boy network'. As mentioned above, we have lived in such a village for 21 years and are the only non-white family. None of the neighbours even acknowledge our presence.....but what I found most painful was when I mentioned this an English colleague, his only comment was to advice me to ignore such behaviour.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby raja » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:50 pm

Going South wrote:Raja is put off by BCCI politics but not by PCB politics or ECB politics or CA politics? WTF. Don’t you dare say there is no politics in other cricket boards but you can only see it in BCCI switch your allegiance to another country? Can’t decide that reverse racist thought or pure hatred ?


There's politics in every cricket board.

But BCCI politics hurts me much more, cos it has ruined my enjoyment of a game and a team I otherwise love so much.

This is like I absolutely LOOOOVE my coffee - and BCCI comes and spits into it. :-)

I protest - and you say, why are you protesting about BCCI, see CA has spit into Katto's coffee, PCB has spit into Asim's coffee, ECB has spit into Boycs' coffee. :grin:

They might all be pissed off (or not) with their respective boards, but I will be pissed off with my OWN board, right?

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Daanav » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:58 pm

I am sorry that this line of discussion ever started. There are some things which are personal and need no explanations. Frankly, I think it is Padlles fault; everyone including me is free to support or not any country they choose in SPORTS and neither do they need to explain it to anyone else nor do others have any right to question it.

Enough said. Now can we please get back to more entertaining discussions like the World Cup?

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Going South » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:59 pm

raja wrote:
Going South wrote:Raja is put off by BCCI politics but not by PCB politics or ECB politics or CA politics? WTF. Don’t you dare say there is no politics in other cricket boards but you can only see it in BCCI switch your allegiance to another country? Can’t decide that reverse racist thought or pure hatred ?


There's politics in every cricket board.

But BCCI politics hurts me much more, cos it has ruined my enjoyment of a game and a team I otherwise love so much.

This is like I absolutely LOOOOVE my coffee - and BCCI comes and spits into it. :-)

I protest - and you say, why are you protesting about BCCI, see CA has spit into Katto's coffee, PCB has spit into Asim's coffee, ECB has spit into Boycs' coffee. :grin:

They might all be pissed off (or not) with their respective boards, but I will be pissed off with my OWN board, right?

I don’t see them supporting other team unlike you. That’s the difference.

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:09 pm

Ok.

I separated the off topic discussion into this new thread so that interested people continue here instead of in worldcup discussion thread.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:33 pm

Going South wrote:
Katto wrote:wtf are you on about

you've never even been outside of NZ


If that’s true, I am with Katto on this one.


Noone needs to migrate to have lived around migrants and migration issues. Seriously.

Let alone racism issues.

And of course I've been out of NZ before...

Now I appreciate Daa has finally opened up - I don't think anyone is all that surprised by his response.

It seemed predictability honest. And not an issue I wish to explore further. But at least its all out on the table now.

Ideally everyone would feel included and be inclusive. And this does not happen. But my concern is on the effects of that becoming toxic too, not just the cause.

I don't like the us and them attitude, I love migrants, love minorities and am happy for there just to be an us. And clearly we're all failing at this.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Paddles » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:58 pm

Daanav wrote:I am sorry that this line of discussion ever started. There are some things which are personal and need no explanations. Frankly, I think it is Padlles fault; everyone including me is free to support or not any country they choose in SPORTS and neither do they need to explain it to anyone else nor do others have any right to question it.

Enough said. Now can we please get back to more entertaining discussions like the World Cup?


It is my fault. I did it, triggered and needled you to get it out and I am sorry to have upset you. But I just wanted it out in the open. I appreciate your candor and your honesty in your latter posts. I am not surprised by you having felt racism being your real reason, I was surprised by your earlier denials of it in a different thread.

I'm sorry you have felt racism in your somewhat migratory life and this influences who you support in sport despite of where you were born and live. I find it rather sad, not of your personally, but the context altogether.

I do hope one day the UK of all religions, skin colors and creeds just becomes an US and not an US and Them culture. But it exists everywhere. All the countries are guilty of it. It is toxic, and causes understandable resentment.

The problem society faces in the wake is this understandable resentment leads to further resentment and dis-liking from the majority of claims of people not integrating into one us, and it all spiral out into a toxic and bitter ugly mess of us and them.

At least if people talk about the issue, more in society can actually do more to try and get along. Each generation gets a bit better.

I find it a fascinating dynamic when a migrant or child of migrant changes their preferred sports team from their home land or even from their parent's homeland. Jeet Raval is from India, and was at a NZC match with an Indian ethnicity friend who was supporting India. Raval was however supporting NZ. Now it would be a massively bad look if Jeet did not, given that is his employer and the people playing for NZ are often his team mates. They both enjoyed the match together. Noone reasonably has an issue with someone still supporting where they're from or feel more connected to more or as well, but not wanting the current country to do well at all outside of their preferred countries, that's going to be widely perceived as being rather toxic and just offers further fuel for the original cause to continue burning over claims of not integrating. When migrants say they support and love the place they have moved to, they disarm this, even if its their "second or third favorite team now".

The England Cricket team has long been one of the most ethnically diverse represented teams with a ton of migrant and minority representation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_E ... of_England

In total, 106 players born abroad have represented England, of a total of 735 players.


When soon JArcher, and the current Rashid, Moeen Ali, Jennings, Currans, Chris Jordan, and Joe Root sit down as team mates, you wouldn't get a more diverse ethinic or physical origin team in the almost any sport in the world. They're from all corners of the globe, and they're all different skins and religions. The England cricket team is migrant integration in action. It's the poster child for it.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:25 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
wtf are you on about

you've never even been outside of NZ


Of course I havn't. And of course I don't have a migrant father. Never met a migrant step father. Never met a migrant. Never been friends with one. I know nothing about migration, at all. Oh wait - where are my great grandparents from? Where were my grandparents from?" Oh wait - NZ is a migrant country.... They were migrants...

Katto - this is your weakest ad hominem yet.

I'm an idealist. I love migrants. I just want migrants to love migration too.

But I have never been outside of NZ....


wtf are you even on about?

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:33 am

Paddles wrote:And of course I've been out of NZ before...


where have you been?

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:03 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:And of course I've been out of NZ before...


where have you been?

Australia. LOL

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:13 am

Going South wrote:
Katto wrote:
where have you been?

Australia. LOL

I don't think he has as I've asked him that before.

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:14 am

Going South wrote:
Katto wrote:wtf are you on about

you've never even been outside of NZ


If that’s true, I am with Katto on this one. Reading about it online & BS on forums is one thing, experiencing it first hand is totally different ballgame. You got to visit Middle East to see what real racism is, man they sure are Up there in it and do it so openly. Every visitor is a kaffir for them and are treated with contempt. Try living like a hindu or Christian in Pakistan. I agree with Daanav in English attitude. In relation American are far more open and treat all as equals with strict laws that support diversity. Much better place to live indeed in comparison.

Australia is much the same but the hysterical media paints it as something it isn't. Particularly media from places like Qatar (Al Jazeera). Probably Paddles favourite news source.

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:25 am

@Paddles

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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:24 am

Paddles wrote:I'm an idealist. I love migrants. I just want migrants to love migration too.


so you love people based on the fact they're migrants

do you love all migrants or just certain migrants?
Last edited by Katto on Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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raja
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Re: immigration

Postby raja » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:38 am

Racism is everywhere.
Maybe more open in some places, and less open in others.

In India, the way black people from Africa are looked at, and treated, is terrible.

But it's everywhere - I was in Dubai a few years ago, and the way the locals treat Caucasians (is that the right term?) as compared to Indians/Pakistanis/Bangladeshis almost made me puke.

In India and the Middle East, it is probably open - cos even if the law is against it, no one cares.

In the West, there are generally strict laws against racism - but even if there weren't, many might consider it politically incorrect to express it openly. So it is more subtle.

But again, in every place, there are also those who are anti-racism, and try to see people beyond their skin colour, ethnicity, religion.

All types everywhere.

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raja
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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby raja » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:52 am

Paddles wrote:I don't like the us and them attitude, I love migrants, love minorities and am happy for there just to be an us. And clearly we're all failing at this.


Forget about migrants, in India, even amongst Indians, there is US and THEM.
Between Hindus and Muslims, Hindus and Christians.
Between upper-caste Hindus and lower-caste Hindus.
Between South Indians and North Indians.
Between Kashmiris and non-Kashmiris.

India doesn't even need Pakistan to divide Indians -it has enough Indians within the country to do this to themselves. :-)

When Indians within India itself cannot be united and think across faith, caste and region, what's the fate of immigrants from other countries?

Recently Rohingya victims from Burma came to India via Bangladesh The poor folks are persecuted in their home country.

Indians predictably raised a furore and want them to be thrown out - cos they are Rohingya MUSLIMS.

It saddens me to see all this.

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Katto
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Re: Who do you want to win the World Cup?

Postby Katto » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:57 am

Paddles wrote:Racism exists. Racism is real.

This is not about racism. English, USA, CAN, NZ - we're guilty af over racism. Aus has taken it to new heights tbh.

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immigration

Postby Going South » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:05 pm

Errr. Rohingya muslims are illegals that entered illegally into country and found to be committing crimes & terror acts. Any country worth their salt would throw away such, but not India. Just because they are Muslims the left media are supporting their settlement WTF. If they were Buddhists etc nobody would bother. All criminals must be locked up. Just because you are a Muslim you cannot get away scotfree, be it rohignyas or cow thieves.