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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:07 pm

Without going into specifics, the problem in the Western way of thinking is that it seldom differentiates between equality and similarity. We are equal yes, but we are NOT all similar. In the past, there was a tendency to subconsciously accept the Western way of thinking and ensuing prerogatives as the norm but as the World gets smaller, this is increasingly not so. People are learning that there is often nothing wrong in their beliefs or comfort zones simply because they are different from what used to be accepted as the "gold standard".....or to put it more precisely, the so-called "Western values". From that sense, the "us and them" feeling has actually increased to some extent but this is not necessarily a bad thing. The World is very cosmopolitan and it is only right that any given culture is left to follow its preferred path provided that this does not interfere with or undermine another on the way.. To be fair though, that concept should apply equally to all cultures (or tribes, if you prefer) so that everyone can live and let live.

Whether we like it or not, national borders are here to stay - which means that it is a country's right to form their own laws regarding immigration without needing to explain to any other why such a law exists. Which means that if any country, say Australia, chooses to impose certain laws and limitations regarding immigration, then it is their right to do so and not up to some other country to challenge them because their own are different. They can criticise it, of course but that's about it.

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:47 pm

I am all for inter racial marriages. We need to fasten it up so that in 100 years world would have no single race but every one is a mix of everyone. We should have laws to prevent marriages within same race. No two people of same race is allowed to have a child together. Next level is no two people of same country should marry. Then no two people of same continent should marry. Soon entire earth is one human race.

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:08 pm

Going South wrote:I am all for inter racial marriages. We need to fasten it up so that in 100 years world would have no single race but every one is a mix of everyone. We should have laws to prevent marriages within same race. No two people of same race is allowed to have a child together. Next level is no two people of same country should marry. Then no two people of same continent should marry. Soon entire earth is one human race.


I disagree completely. I never heard of anything more idiotic in my life. Sounds like Nazi type dictatorship, trying to influence the way people want to marry or have a child together, even if it working the opposite way.

What right have you or anyone else to decide how any given person should marry or not? As long as there is no coercion from third parties, if people choose to marry within their comfort zone of religion or culture, it is their business.

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:49 pm

Daanav wrote:Without going into specifics, the problem in the Western way of thinking is that it seldom differentiates between equality and similarity. We are equal yes, but we are NOT all similar. In the past, there was a tendency to subconsciously accept the Western way of thinking and ensuing prerogatives as the norm but as the World gets smaller, this is increasingly not so.


Not being similar but equal was the rationale behind the Jim Crow laws and was used to justify legal separation. Trust me - you wouldn't like this outcome.

http://www.crf-usa.org/black-history-mo ... f-jim-crow

Daanav wrote: People are learning that there is often nothing wrong in their beliefs or comfort zones simply because they are different from what used to be accepted as the "gold standard".....or to put it more precisely, the so-called "Western values". From that sense, the "us and them" feeling has actually increased to some extent but this is not necessarily a bad thing. The World is very cosmopolitan and it is only right that any given culture is left to follow its preferred path provided that this does not interfere with or undermine another on the way.. To be fair though, that concept should apply equally to all cultures (or tribes, if you prefer) so that everyone can live and let live.


The issue is "us and them" ill-feeling towards co-habitants. Us and them internally typically leads to toxic outcomes for minorities in any democracy. The issue is trying to prevent perpetuation and further fueling of toxicity amongst a group masses cohabitation in a place. People can prey to their own gods, build their own temples, wear their own clothes. That's not the issue. It's when there is ill-feeling in a "us" and "them" split that toxicity flourishes.

Daanav wrote:Whether we like it or not, national borders are here to stay - which means that it is a country's right to form their own laws regarding immigration without needing to explain to any other why such a law exists. Which means that if any country, say Australia, chooses to impose certain laws and limitations regarding immigration, then it is their right to do so and not up to some other country to challenge them because their own are different. They can criticise it, of course but that's about it.


I'm not challenging the idea of recognizing sovereignty in the least. But I am not saying all war and invasion of some Dictator with human rights abuses is unjustifiable neither - see Milosovic for example. Or even failing to recognise the Isis state. Hitler was a game changer, lead to the UN formation and its unapologetic declaration of human rights. The world feels justified to criticise, pressure and possibly even intervene what occurs within foreign borders now. Did you have an issue with the Gleneagles? That really split people in many countries, especially in NZ in 1981 where there were riots continuously, but it stayed in force for the most part elsewhere.

Re Sovereignty - the EU poses a serious question on how many borders there will be in the long term future, and not through conquering but through a union. Australia wanted to become one over 100 years after it colonized. As did the States when it got Independence from the UK. Sometimes people actually want to union for a common good. Not all sovereigns were formed out of conquest or abandoning. And forming a union, is a drastic constitutional change and limit on law making power. Once Brexit goes through, there is so much law to be re-tested in the UK, because so much of the current UK common law is based on the EU's law making power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleneagles_Agreement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Sout ... ted_States
Last edited by Paddles on Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:29 pm

What you have to remember is more the system tries to enforce people to change their ways, more they will put their backs up and do the exact opposite. Obviously, most decent people understand the concept of right and wrong and there is need for ALL concerned to obey laws of the land that they live in; no question about that. But if they choose to be different eg more conservative - in their social norms, then that is their business. It is when the system tries to change such things and impose what the majority perceive as "normal" do the problems start.

An example is in the UK. When I first came to the UK as an adult in 1985, Muslim veils and even hijabs were relatively rare, particularly among younger women. Nowadays, the traditional dress code is far more common - even in young girls - and not all due to compulsion like some people choose to believe. They see - and not entirely wrongly - that the system is trying to erode their cultural beliefs while preaching "democratic" values at the same time. Persuading a minority group to change their beliefs when they are not breaking any law hardly sounds like democracy. Whether you like it or not, that's the size of it and over time, you'll have to come to accept the concept of each to his or her own as long as they do not interfere with others.

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:34 pm

Daanav wrote:What you have to remember is more the system tries to enforce people to change their ways, more they will put their backs up and do the exact opposite. Obviously, most decent people understand the concept of right and wrong and there is need for ALL concerned to obey laws of the land that they live in; no question about that. But if they choose to be different eg more conservative - in their social norms, then that is their business. It is when the system tries to change such things and impose what the majority perceive as "normal" do the problems start.

An example is in the UK. When I first came to the UK as an adult in 1985, Muslim veils and even hijabs were relatively rare, particularly among younger women. Nowadays, the traditional dress code is far more common - even in young girls - and not all due to compulsion like some people choose to believe. They see - and not entirely wrongly - that the system is trying to erode their cultural beliefs while preaching "democratic" values at the same time. Persuading a minority group to change their beliefs when they are not breaking any law hardly sounds like democracy. Whether you like it or not, that's the size of it and over time, you'll have to come to accept the concept of each to his or her own as long as they do not interfere with others.


None of this is about ill will. We can celebrate diversity, we can embrace it, recognize and enjoy it. Or people can try and fit in. These are personal decisions. Neither should garner ill will. I love my South African biltong, my Indian curries and my Asian stir fries and soups. There is a lot of good in living in a cultural melting pot. The system is failing itself if it encourages ill will, though, and so are the victims if they engage in it also, though.

The more there is ill will from one group, and the victimized group then generates and expresses ill will to that group, that originating group then has ill will to the reactionary ill will. And it spirals out of control into a toxic mess of sheer and ugly hatred. It's about stopping the spreading cycle of new ill will before then chipping away at the root cause (which will take centuries at this current rate).

Do you not honestly believe that England cricket team, as diverse as it has been for decades, does not promote less racist values among England cricket fans? That some little white English born kid, supporting Archer, Jordan, Ali, Rashid - previously Nassir and Sammit Patel, heck - put the Curran's in there too, has one less reason to think ill will to an us and them toward minorities? Do you not believe that if you went to a local pub - and said damn England has a fine ODI team now and is playing some great cricket, you could not make friends faster than saying "I hope England loses all its games cos Poms are arrogant and passively racist"?
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:02 pm

Paddles wrote:Do you not honestly believe that England cricket team, as diverse as it has been for decades, does not promote less racist values among England cricket fans? That some little white English born kid, supporting Archer, Jordan, Ali, Rashid - previously Nassir and Sammit Patel, heck - put the Curran's in there too, has one less reason to think ill will to an us and them toward minorities? Do you not believe that if you went to a local pub - and said damn England has a fine ODI team now and is playing some great cricket, you could not make friends faster than saying "I hope England loses all its games cos Poms are arrogant and passively racist"?


Paddles, I am tired of explaining the same thing to you. My refusal to support any English or British Sports individual or team has nothing to do with any passive racism that I might have experienced, religion, culture etc. It is entirely personal and I have a feeling that you will not understand at all; by contrast Raja has. It is not something that can be "corrected" if something changes to my line of thinking - it is just one of those things.

I know very strict Muslims who constantly complain what the country is doing to them and yet are ardent supporters of England Football team. Sports is something else.

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:17 pm

Daanav wrote:
Paddles, I am tired of explaining the same thing to you. My refusal to support any English or British Sports individual or team has nothing to do with any passive racism that I might have experienced, religion, culture etc. It is entirely personal and I have a feeling that you will not understand at all; by contrast Raja has. It is not something that can be "corrected" if something changes to my line of thinking - it is just one of those things.

I know very strict Muslims who constantly complain what the country is doing to them and yet are ardent supporters of England Football team. Sports is something else.


I am trying to explain something to you. You brought up that you're ethnically Indian. You brought up ethnicity. Read the thread. You did.

Now I get why you'd support India. That's fine. Want India to beat England, no issue.

Then you brought up and relayed your experience with passive racism. You did.

You brought up English arrogance in sport. You did.

And you want England to lose every game. Not just India. Not just the sub-continent. But everyone. (And every sport).

If you cannot see that ethnic minorities walking around England while living there and saying I will not support this country ever in sports regardless of who they're playing and want them to lose as they're often a bunch of yobs with an arrogant media could be perceived as passive prejudice and ill will to the sports fan majority of that country, then there isn't much point in the conversation. We can end the conversation quite happily.

You say its not passive prejudice. And that sports is different. I'm not here to challenge your integrity. But one could be forgiven for gleaming more than just a hint of Anti-England sporting prejudism in the comments, however different sports may be to you and erroneous that view is. I don't think it will go down well at a pub in England beside the grounds. I don't think it does much to encourage the Brexit referendum voter influenced by anti-migration, to back down on their view of being anti-migration much neither. In fact, it just gives fuel to fire, no matter how misunderstood you say that you really are.

And the fire needs to be starved. Because it gets ugly when it grows - see Chch. And everyone has a role to play to passive or active prejudism, not just the majority, but the minority too. Heck - even the 'do gooders' in majority sometimes need to exercise a bit common sense when something is clearly just going to bring up further majority resentment of minority.

Now you can say its like unionites who refuse to support (that is want them to lose, not just not watch cos they don't like the game - it's the ill will element) their national rugby league or football team and vice versa, but that's really simply systemic with a rooted based in class systems. Its roots are in class based ill will.

Wider partisan is always a huge factor in sporting team support. Intl sport thrives with patriotism motivating fans to watch and attend. The social benefits are publicly recognized and funding is handed out accordingly. Many people love their sports and their countries to do well.

Of course you can do and say as you please. But you're not doing the Indian kid at the local English majority-white school many favours for his generational experiences, even if he supports England himself and you are in fact just misunderstood because 'sports is different'. Everything ripples out.

Why is sports different when so many people are so passionate in patriotic support for their teams? Many people don't understand it. Raja gave his reasons, his issues with BCCI politics is well known, and underdogs makes sense. Or personal dislike of a single individual like Nadal. But he supports India in plenty and often. There's no micro-aggression there. But you're in a different sphere with a single refusal for all sports ever. Which one of these is your reason? Why should it not be interpreted as a micro-aggression by native Brits?

Now you don't have to say it, but I am just saying if people don't get it, it just fuels further ill will. And you don't help the cause of other minorities suffering passive racism from the Brit majority, much good at all. Because it doesn't matter if you understand why it's not, they need to know why it's not so to not form their own conclusions that are erroneous and resentful to all minorities.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:56 am

Going South wrote:I am all for inter racial marriages. We need to fasten it up so that in 100 years world would have no single race but every one is a mix of everyone. We should have laws to prevent marriages within same race. No two people of same race is allowed to have a child together. Next level is no two people of same country should marry. Then no two people of same continent should marry. Soon entire earth is one human race.

:lol: I hope this is a troll

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:00 am

diversity is all well and good until a particular foreign political ideology that doesn't believe in diversity comes along and begins to dominate the landscape to an extent that diversity no longer exists and previous freedoms that were the norm are no longer allowed

We've seen this happen before with communism and national socialism. We're also seeing it with another political ideology.

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:01 am

Katto wrote:diversity is all well and good until a particular foreign political ideology that doesn't believe in diversity comes along and begins to dominate the landscape to an extent that diversity no longer exists and previous freedoms that were the norm are no longer allowed

We've seen this happen before with communism and national socialism. We're also seeing it with another political ideology.

Say it clearly that it’s the religion that’s the main culprit.
There are two worst religious ideologies that are so bad that they wiped out diversity from landscapes, entire native tribes of land killed mercilessly
1. Christianity
2. Islam

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:42 am

Going South wrote:
Katto wrote:diversity is all well and good until a particular foreign political ideology that doesn't believe in diversity comes along and begins to dominate the landscape to an extent that diversity no longer exists and previous freedoms that were the norm are no longer allowed

We've seen this happen before with communism and national socialism. We're also seeing it with another political ideology.

Say it clearly that it’s the religion that’s the main culprit.
There are two worst religious ideologies that are so bad that they wiped out diversity from landscapes, entire native tribes of land killed mercilessly
1. Christianity
2. Islam

You're blaming imperialism on Christianity when Christianity has nothing to do with it. Modern cultures separate church and state because church was previously exploited for political means. Show me where in the Christian Bible it tells people to conquer and subjugate populations.

Islam on the other hand clearly states its agenda in its texts and is inseparable from the state.

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:55 am

There’s nothing wrong with religion per se but where things go wrong is when people use it as an excuse to enforce their agenda on an unwilling population. Quietly practiced religious and cultural beliefs can provide a comfort zone to fall back upon in difficult times. In some cultures it provides a bulwark in the background but that’s all what it should be. In my view, religion should be personal and familial and not brought outside to be imposed on others who don’t share the same views. By the same token, those who don’t believe in religion or cultural norms have no business to enforce their views on those who do. Otherwise, we end up with some form of totalitarian society.

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:59 am

Katto wrote:
Going South wrote:I am all for inter racial marriages. We need to fasten it up so that in 100 years world would have no single race but every one is a mix of everyone. We should have laws to prevent marriages within same race. No two people of same race is allowed to have a child together. Next level is no two people of same country should marry. Then no two people of same continent should marry. Soon entire earth is one human race.

:lol: I hope this is a troll

I hope so too. Otherwise, all it needs to hammer home it’s message is a reversed Swastika.

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immigration

Postby Going South » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:04 am

Katto wrote:
Going South wrote:Say it clearly that it’s the religion that’s the main culprit.
There are two worst religious ideologies that are so bad that they wiped out diversity from landscapes, entire native tribes of land killed mercilessly
1. Christianity
2. Islam

You're blaming imperialism on Christianity when Christianity has nothing to do with it. Modern cultures separate church and state because church was previously exploited for political means. Show me where in the Christian Bible it tells people to conquer and subjugate populations.

Islam on the other hand clearly states its agenda in its texts and is inseparable from the state.

Hahahahaha BS.
ALL ethnic cleaning in the world starts with Christian missionaries sending evangelists to far away places and end result after they set foot there is that entire “pagan” or “kaffir” races wiped off the face of earth and Christianity is the only one left there. Same is true with Islam.

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:25 pm

Just because some misguided people wreaked havoc in the name of religion and culture - be they Christian or Muslim, it doesn’t mean that religion itself is evil. Most of the time it gives people some sort of ideology, something to hang onto. I was raised as Hindu but my wife and I consider ourselves as Agnostic; but I have no objection got other people to practice their religion if they so choose.
I do believe in the comfort zone provided by my culture though and wouldn’t want to stray too far from it.

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:00 pm

Problem is that reverse acceptance is not there. Islam encourages marriages of Muslim men marrying others (up to 4) but forbid other men marry Muslim women. Pakistan recently saw 2 Hindu girls forcibly married to already married guys with kids, went to court, no help, courts, government, Imran Khan etc did nothing. On flip side Muslim girls who loved guys from other religion got killed, justified as honor killing. Same is true all around the world. It’s a one way street where greater good is no good, if the trend continues on this one way street more ethnic cleansing happen with only 2 religions left in the world leading to destruction of world when they have no pagans or kaffirs left to convert. Our life is definitely going to end soon, so enjoy T20 cricket as much as you can.

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:51 pm

Going South wrote:
Katto wrote:You're blaming imperialism on Christianity when Christianity has nothing to do with it. Modern cultures separate church and state because church was previously exploited for political means. Show me where in the Christian Bible it tells people to conquer and subjugate populations.

Islam on the other hand clearly states its agenda in its texts and is inseparable from the state.

Hahahahaha BS.
ALL ethnic cleaning in the world starts with Christian missionaries sending evangelists to far away places and end result after they set foot there is that entire “pagan” or “kaffir” races wiped off the face of earth and Christianity is the only one left there. Same is true with Islam.


you're clueless

they're not christian missionaries, they're Church missionaries

big difference

again, find me the place in the Bible...

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:56 pm

So it’s alright? Hahahahaha
Potato pototo

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:31 pm

Going South wrote:So it’s alright? Hahahahaha
Potato pototo


Christianity is the bible. Its not the church. Anyone can start a church. None of them own the religion. Rather they exploit it and pervert it.

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:45 pm

Vatican is a mom and pop store. Hahahahaha

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:44 am

Going South wrote:Vatican is a mom and pop store. Hahahahaha


vatican is catholicism, not christianity.

the reformation existed not to reform christianity, but to reform the church. christianity didn't need reforming.

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:17 am

Katto wrote:
Going South wrote:So it’s alright? Hahahahaha
Potato pototo


Christianity is the bible. Its not the church. Anyone can start a church. None of them own the religion. Rather they exploit it and pervert it.


Pretty sure Jesus had a following before Constantine or anyone else collated and published any scriptures. I mean one of the life events of Jesus is he started his own religion, right? He had followers before he died.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:33 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
Christianity is the bible. Its not the church. Anyone can start a church. None of them own the religion. Rather they exploit it and pervert it.


Pretty sure Jesus had a following before Constantine or anyone else collated and published any scriptures. I mean one of the life events of Jesus is he started his own religion, right? He had followers before he died.

Is there a point to this post?

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:50 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Pretty sure Jesus had a following before Constantine or anyone else collated and published any scriptures. I mean one of the life events of Jesus is he started his own religion, right? He had followers before he died.

Is there a point to this post?


Not one that mattered to me. :-)

Problem is, religion has been the central excuse for Empire from the get - go. The Germans were barbarians, and Rome's civilisation needed their gods too where conquered imposed on them, which were copied from the Greek Gods anyway. Until Constantinople saw a burning cross and formed the Roman Church, which then became used in Empire. Later a schism with the East, but still a hand in eastern politics, while the west did the same.

The books of the old testament justified holy war and Isreal was sought by Christians. ANd the gold in south america, clearly they needed salvation.

I am Christian by the way, Church of England.

Then there were the Islamic empires - but they came later on the scene than the Romans or Christians.

Buddhism spread by conquest too.

Jews lost their wars with the Romans, but they had them.

And even Hindi made it to Cambodia by conquest. They built Angkor Wat, but the Buddhists eventually beat them out. But the Hindu tasting cuisine there isn't half bad.

People have always waged war, they loved doing it in the name of religion. Felt morally right I guess. People have done it in the name of economic theory too, communism and capitalism. Gotta love those empires.

But the idea of a holy way, is found in the justification of the crusades too. Admittedly two old testament chapters, but how else could Augustine defend the notion bar just? It became holy when Knights Templar et al went after Israel and all in the way.

People can use religion or socio-politics as a moral basis for war. Before that it was skin colour and side they ate their eggs from when boiled.

You will say your point is - "its not in the new testament" - tell that to the Knights Templar. But those claiming how pacifist and peaceful they are, sure do like the idea of borders and protecting their borders. Noone knows until they're strong enough to invade whether they think that's a good idea too, but nukes kinda eliminated that more and more. But soon - most nations that want that tech will have it. I mean - its getting pretty dated now...

But then the issues become internal with the excuse being migration and domestic terrorism happens from within.

Ugh... will mankind always look for violent conflict and use sociopolitics, religion or anything else as a moral excuse?

Almost everyone on the planet is born from conquered lineage, or from the conqueror, or both. And that's that. Time to move on for all of us. (Except for Iceland if we exclude vikings. But they're just one big family as the jeer goes...)

While people cling to notions of pan-cultural better than (whether based on superiority or inferiority), the global politico/religious problems won't go away.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:14 am

We have UN declared Human Rights Rules now, doesn't matter if the infringer is Islamic, Christian (Prot, Byzan or Cath), Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Capitalist, Communist, Black, White, Yellow, or anything else.

We have standards independent of beliefs. That's the new measure of right.

If people could focus more on the rights, and less on the ethnicity, religion or origin. That would be great.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:14 am

Paddles wrote:We have UN declared Human Rights Rules now, doesn't matter if the infringer is Islamic, Christian (Prot, Byzan or Cath), Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Capitalist, Communist, Black, White, Yellow, or anything else.

We have standards independent of beliefs. That's the new measure of right.

If people could focus more on the rights, and less on the ethnicity, religion or origin. That would be great.


UN Human Rights Advisory Committee that elects Saudis as its chair :lol: Tell me more about this UN declared Human Rights....

You're still failing to see the point here. Its all well and good to have a culture that believes in diversity and human rights, until another culture comes along that doesn't and begins to dominate your political landscape via voting blocs.

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:36 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:We have UN declared Human Rights Rules now, doesn't matter if the infringer is Islamic, Christian (Prot, Byzan or Cath), Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Capitalist, Communist, Black, White, Yellow, or anything else.

We have standards independent of beliefs. That's the new measure of right.

If people could focus more on the rights, and less on the ethnicity, religion or origin. That would be great.


UN Human Rights Advisory Committee that elects Saudis as its chair :lol:


You really just missed the point. Altogether. Entirely


Katto wrote:Tell me more about this UN declared Human Rights....


https://www.un.org/en/universal-declara ... an-rights/

Katto wrote:You're still failing to see the point here.


Tell me more about individuals being Saudis

Katto wrote: Its all well and good to have a culture that believes in diversity and human rights, until another culture comes along that doesn't and begins to dominate your political landscape via voting blocs.


Again, tell me about every individual Saudi... You do realize a democratic voting bloc has to well over 50% of the population to event get 50% of the vote right? lol. Unless there's electoral colleges :P I mean this is lol. Electoral blocs get a few suburbs.... where they're over 50% of the population in those burbs... Just do the maths... "5% of the population just electoral blocked in ghettos to get 1% of the representatives.."

China have electoral "blocked in Auckland NZ in 2 suburbs" arguably - they have 2 seats... out of 120, that's under 2% - they are over 4% of the population... Wait - they're down to 1 seat now. Less than 1%. Wait - he''s a list MP... He didn't even win an electorate.

You're literally raising a fear that denies democracy good points Katto.

Tell more about Ghetto's...
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:32 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
UN Human Rights Advisory Committee that elects Saudis as its chair :lol:


You really just missed the point. Altogether. Entirely


Katto wrote:Tell me more about this UN declared Human Rights....


https://www.un.org/en/universal-declara ... an-rights/

Katto wrote:You're still failing to see the point here.


Tell me more about individuals being Saudis

Katto wrote: Its all well and good to have a culture that believes in diversity and human rights, until another culture comes along that doesn't and begins to dominate your political landscape via voting blocs.


Again, tell me about every individual Saudi... You do realize a democratic voting bloc has to well over 50% of the population to event get 50% of the vote right? lol. Unless there's electoral colleges :P I mean this is lol. Electoral blocs get a few suburbs.... where they're over 50% of the population in those burbs... Just do the maths... "5% of the population just electoral blocked in ghettos to get 1% of the representatives.."

China have electoral "blocked in Auckland NZ in 2 suburbs" arguably - they have 2 seats... out of 120, that's under 2% - they are over 4% of the population... Wait - they're down to 1 seat now. Less than 1%. Wait - he''s a list MP... He didn't even win an electorate.

You're literally raising a fear that denies democracy good points Katto.

Tell more about Ghetto's...


You fail to understand how numbers work in politics. Islamists back an existing political party then gradually take it over.
That existing party, like any party sees an opportunity to use a bloc as leverage to ensure re-election. The interests of that bloc then become promoted within the party to ensure the loyalty of the bloc.

Again, your naivety on all of these issues is on display. I don't blame you for it. NZ is a very sheltered place and the media that you follow doesn't do a very good job of informing you about reality.

Your supposedly secular government is already broadcasting call to prayer on national television. This is only the beginning. NZ will lack any inertia to push back on this march. Your best hope are the hindu Indians and you better hope they become politically active otherwise rip democratic NZ,

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:51 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
You really just missed the point. Altogether. Entirely




https://www.un.org/en/universal-declara ... an-rights/



Tell me more about individuals being Saudis



Again, tell me about every individual Saudi... You do realize a democratic voting bloc has to well over 50% of the population to event get 50% of the vote right? lol. Unless there's electoral colleges :P I mean this is lol. Electoral blocs get a few suburbs.... where they're over 50% of the population in those burbs... Just do the maths... "5% of the population just electoral blocked in ghettos to get 1% of the representatives.."

China have electoral "blocked in Auckland NZ in 2 suburbs" arguably - they have 2 seats... out of 120, that's under 2% - they are over 4% of the population... Wait - they're down to 1 seat now. Less than 1%. Wait - he''s a list MP... He didn't even win an electorate.

You're literally raising a fear that denies democracy good points Katto.

Tell more about Ghetto's...


Katto wrote:You fail to understand how numbers work in politics. Islamists back an existing political party then gradually take it over. After an Australian shot 50 muslims right? You didn't get her message?
That existing party, like any party sees an opportunity to use a bloc as leverage to ensure re-election. The interests of that bloc then become promoted within the party to ensure the loyalty of the bloc.


Again, your naivety on all of these issues is on display. I don't blame you for it. NZ is a very sheltered place and the media that you follow doesn't do a very good job of informing you about reality.

Your supposedly secular government is already broadcasting call to prayer on national television. This is only the beginning. NZ will lack any inertia to push back on this march. Your best hope are the hindu Indians and you better hope they become politically active otherwise rip democratic NZ,


NZ is MMP, takes 51% to win.... Lol... If the "bloc" becomes majority and then some more (and more) - then its their majority... and tyranny of majority continues to rule... like it has done forever... So unless there's an authoritarian in the house to disclaim democracy as the best alternative... And I as have told your before, I dual passport - I can leave easily :-) But all I hear is fear mongering tbh...
\
And lol at NZ media - you really think we don't have British, USA, Asian news 24/7... LOL! Damn Katto - we even have FOx sports Aus 24/7... I don't even watch AFL.... LOL! I could watch Fox News USA all day if I wanted to Katto. LOL!

But thanks for the unintended giggle.

Tick that Pauline Hanson box Katto... do the right thing by Australia - lol.

Cos once you get over that institutionalized race or religion thing - its going to dawn on you afterwards, its institutionalized money and connections thereafter. Cos its about power and influence thereafter once no religion or race majority... actually already is well established before there's a handover of any kind... Read white Jewish hate in America...
Last edited by Paddles on Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:17 am, edited 8 times in total.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:55 am

Going South, you’re harping a bit too much on this interfaith marriage nonsense. That actually makes people more rather than less hostile towards other races and religions. Human nature being what it is, people immediately put up barriers to any concept that they see as being forced on them. History is full of examples to that but we won’t go into it now. My opinion is to follow your religion and/or culture if you are comfortable with it and afford the same respect to others who prefer to follow a different path. Beyond that let nature take its course.
If EVERYONE followed that concept, that “reverse situation” that you are so zeroed on will not exist at all.

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:14 am

Going South, I believe in one thing very firmly. Nature made some differences in human beings from different regions for a reason. Definitely EQUAL but different. Best to leave each culture to itself as long as no one culture enforces it’s thinking on another. You may not realise or accept it, but in a way that enforcement is exactly what you are suggesting - Western “values” on other cultures. No matter how hard you or anyone else tries, no one is going to achieve that “Homogeneous anthropological melting pot” for the human race. It is a pipe dream that was never meant to be.

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:18 am

Daanav wrote:Going South, I believe in one thing very firmly. Nature made some differences in human beings from different regions for a reason. Definitely EQUAL but different. Best to leave each culture to itself as long as no one culture enforces it’s thinking on another. You may not realise or accept it, but in a way that enforcement is exactly what you are suggesting - Western “values” on other cultures. No matter how hard you or anyone else tries, no one is going to achieve that “Homogeneous anthropological melting pot” for the human race. It is a pipe dream that was never meant to be.

Lol...
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:05 am

LOL

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:25 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:


NZ is MMP, takes 51% to win.... Lol... If the "bloc" becomes majority and then some more (and more) - then its their majority... and tyranny of majority continues to rule... like it has done forever... So unless there's an authoritarian in the house to disclaim democracy as the best alternative... And I as have told your before, I dual passport - I can leave easily :-) But all I hear is fear mongering tbh...
\
And lol at NZ media - you really think we don't have British, USA, Asian news 24/7... LOL! Damn Katto - we even have FOx sports Aus 24/7... I don't even watch AFL.... LOL! I could watch Fox News USA all day if I wanted to Katto. LOL!

But thanks for the unintended giggle.

Tick that Pauline Hanson box Katto... do the right thing by Australia - lol.

Cos once you get over that institutionalized race or religion thing - its going to dawn on you afterwards, its institutionalized money and connections thereafter. Cos its about power and influence thereafter once no religion or race majority... actually already is well established before there's a handover of any kind... Read white Jewish hate in America...


this post just further proves everything I said about you

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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:26 am

Daanav wrote:Going South, I believe in one thing very firmly. Nature made some differences in human beings from different regions for a reason. Definitely EQUAL but different. Best to leave each culture to itself as long as no one culture enforces it’s thinking on another. You may not realise or accept it, but in a way that enforcement is exactly what you are suggesting - Western “values” on other cultures. No matter how hard you or anyone else tries, no one is going to achieve that “Homogeneous anthropological melting pot” for the human race. It is a pipe dream that was never meant to be.


I agree with this and it works both ways too.

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:50 am

Katto wrote:
Daanav wrote:Going South, I believe in one thing very firmly. Nature made some differences in human beings from different regions for a reason. Definitely EQUAL but different. Best to leave each culture to itself as long as no one culture enforces it’s thinking on another. You may not realise or accept it, but in a way that enforcement is exactly what you are suggesting - Western “values” on other cultures. No matter how hard you or anyone else tries, no one is going to achieve that “Homogeneous anthropological melting pot” for the human race. It is a pipe dream that was never meant to be.


I agree with this and it works both ways too.

It most definitely works both ways. The problem is that some self-indulgent people prefer to live in an unrealistic dream world and believe that the world is going to turn into some sort of Coleridgian Utopia in the not too far distant future.

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immigration

Postby Going South » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:10 pm

Gandhi said that if someone slap you on right cheek, show your left cheek to them.
Now you got 2 outcomes
1. They stop and feel ashamed of what they did
2. They hit you hard on right cheek also.

What is the most possible outcome?

You are an idiot if you believe in option#1

We are talking about dreaded religion here!


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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:09 pm

Going South wrote:Gandhi said that if someone slap you on right cheek, show your left cheek to them.
Now you got 2 outcomes
1. They stop and feel ashamed of what they did
2. They hit you hard on right cheek also.

What is the most possible outcome?

You are an idiot if you believe in option#1

We are talking about dreaded religion here!


Wow - he totally stole this from someone else just as famous.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:12 pm

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
NZ is MMP, takes 51% to win.... Lol... If the "bloc" becomes majority and then some more (and more) - then its their majority... and tyranny of majority continues to rule... like it has done forever... So unless there's an authoritarian in the house to disclaim democracy as the best alternative... And I as have told your before, I dual passport - I can leave easily :-) But all I hear is fear mongering tbh...
\
And lol at NZ media - you really think we don't have British, USA, Asian news 24/7... LOL! Damn Katto - we even have FOx sports Aus 24/7... I don't even watch AFL.... LOL! I could watch Fox News USA all day if I wanted to Katto. LOL!

But thanks for the unintended giggle.

Tick that Pauline Hanson box Katto... do the right thing by Australia - lol.

Cos once you get over that institutionalized race or religion thing - its going to dawn on you afterwards, its institutionalized money and connections thereafter. Cos its about power and influence thereafter once no religion or race majority... actually already is well established before there's a handover of any kind... Read white Jewish hate in America...


this post just further proves everything I said about you


Nah - its simple history, if you have a group populace all the same colour and religion, you still end up with social classes hating each other in a market economy.

The solution to this tried was communism and NAZIsm - but the secret police and concentration camps and the lack of food under communism made it far less desirable in effect - the lack of democratic power made it an autocratic regime.

Haters will always find reasons to hate. Stop hating.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:25 pm



GS, that is more than pathetic. You post those crummy links to try and discuss a point rather than come-up with some logical originals? Hold on, if your earlier post about forced interracial relationships is anything to go by, you need real help.

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:55 pm

You missed the point.

Read the links again.

Then we discuss if you still could not understand my earlier post about mixed race being future of world in next 100 years.

Yawn!

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:58 pm

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
this post just further proves everything I said about you


Nah - its simple history, if you have a group populace all the same colour and religion, you still end up with social classes hating each other in a market economy.

The solution to this tried was communism and NAZIsm - but the secret police and concentration camps and the lack of food under communism made it far less desirable in effect - the lack of democratic power made it an autocratic regime.

Haters will always find reasons to hate. Stop hating.

Yep.
Protestants vs Catholics
Sunni vs Shia
Upper class hindu vs dalits

Haters will always find reasons to hate.

If you can blur those lines by mixed race all around, you start accepting the diversity, first step towards one world.

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Re: immigration

Postby Going South » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:59 pm

Paddles wrote:
Going South wrote:Gandhi said that if someone slap you on right cheek, show your left cheek to them.
Now you got 2 outcomes
1. They stop and feel ashamed of what they did
2. They hit you hard on right cheek also.

What is the most possible outcome?

You are an idiot if you believe in option#1

We are talking about dreaded religion here!


Wow - he totally stole this from someone else just as famous.

Yes.

For the record, IMO Gandhi is not so great as he was projected in the world. HAHAHAHAHA

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:29 pm

Going South wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Nah - its simple history, if you have a group populace all the same colour and religion, you still end up with social classes hating each other in a market economy.

The solution to this tried was communism and NAZIsm - but the secret police and concentration camps and the lack of food under communism made it far less desirable in effect - the lack of democratic power made it an autocratic regime.

Haters will always find reasons to hate. Stop hating.

Yep.
Protestants vs Catholics
Sunni vs Shia
Upper class hindu vs dalits

Haters will always find reasons to hate.

If you can blur those lines by mixed race all around, you start accepting the diversity, first step towards one world.


Your melting pot theory has been around since the hippie generation. The only issue with it is the hate then becomes class or Indian caste based. People will always find a reason to hate their cohabitants.

It actually starts and ends with stopping the hate. That's it. Gandhi knew it. Jesus knew it. It's just easier said than done.

Communism doesn't put food in everyone's belly - and the social classes will hate and be scared of each other, the rich fear the poor revolting and the poor hate being crushed by the rich... Cos the rich are only rich while they can buy cheap poor labour either directly or through the products it makes...

So the circle continues of hating cohabitants now coupled with religious, racial and migrant differences as we are no longer living in tribes but within our own national Leviathan (Hobbes) interests. With further hate, fear and distrust based on migration now as everyone seeks a better level on the social cake - and to retain their better birth rights...

The problem with Hobbes Leviathan theory - as magnificent as it is - is that if everyone puts aside their strength to allay their fear, you end up with a strong paranoid government. Machiavelli realised this, Hobbe's didn't. Machiavelli just learned and taught how to use it for one's own ends.

It's all human nature. We want better. Even people within the tribes - the hunters and male gatherers would have disliked each other based on roles and benefits within. Jealousy, envy, fear, security, strength - these are base motivations for humans.

Rome had black emperors and rich colored merchants by the dozen - Rome had class struggles.
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:54 pm

Going South wrote:
If you can blur those lines by mixed race all around, you start accepting the diversity, first step towards one world.


To point out how mixed-up your own "logic" is, read your own quote again. If you succeeded in creating this so-called "one world" of yours populated by mixed race people indistinguishable from one another, where is the diversity???

And where did you get the idea about being different from one another leading to hate? Despite the fact that a few demagogues like Hitler, Bin Laden etc have tried to promote such ideas, majority of the world population - the ordinary men, women and children on the street - do not hate others who are different from them. The overwhelming majority of the World's population do not make any kind of news; it is only the politicians and media who put forward such ideas, invariable with an ulterior motive. If you read any Indian newspaper for a week, you might start believing that every Pakistani is an enemy of India and vice versa, I am sure, if you read a Pakistani paper. My wife, very much a Hindu, is an amateur archaeologist and has travelled a lot in Pakistan during her visits to Harappa & Mohenjo Daro ruins. She found most ordinary people friendly and welcoming, no different from their opposite numbers over the border.

People can be different from each other and live quite happily, even as neighbours. There is no need to ape each other's culture to be able to do that.

I have travelled around many parts of the world in my time - Europe, Far East, Caribbean, the USA etc. I can appreciate the diversity without finding the need to become like the people I meet. If I have booked an expensive holiday to Bali, it would be to meet people of a different culture, try their cuisine, find out about their customs etc, which usually is the purpose of such a holiday. If Bali was the same as a visit to the Cotswolds, why would I be interested? My point is that one can appreciate different cultures, enjoy the experience for its worth and then come back home to your comfort zone. I have done that without the slightest problem in several countries for over 30 years and know that I am right. Frankly, if you think the outbursts of a self-important moron in some link is going to make me or anyone else like me start feeling guilty about their views and start believing in this one-world nonsense, think again.

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Re: immigration

Postby Paddles » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:57 pm

Daanav wrote:
Going South wrote:
If you can blur those lines by mixed race all around, you start accepting the diversity, first step towards one world.


To point out how mixed-up your own "logic" is, read your own quote again. If you succeeded in creating this so-called "one world" of yours populated by mixed race people indistinguishable from one another, where is the diversity???

And where did you get the idea about being different from one another leading to hate? Despite the fact that a few demagogues like Hitler, Bin Laden etc have tried to promote such ideas, majority of the world population - the ordinary men, women and children on the street - do not hate others who are different from them. The overwhelming majority of the World's population do not make any kind of news; it is only the politicians and media who put forward such ideas, invariable with an ulterior motive. If you read any Indian newspaper for a week, you might start believing that every Pakistani is an enemy of India and vice versa, I am sure, if you read a Pakistani paper. My wife, very much a Hindu, is an amateur archaeologist and has travelled a lot in Pakistan during her visits to Harappa & Mohenjo Daro ruins. She found most ordinary people friendly and welcoming, no different from their opposite numbers over the border.

People can be different from each other and live quite happily, even as neighbours. There is no need to ape each other's culture to be able to do that.

I have travelled around many parts of the world in my time - Europe, Far East, Caribbean, the USA etc. I can appreciate the diversity without finding the need to become like the people I meet. If I have booked an expensive holiday to Bali, it would be to meet people of a different culture, try their cuisine, find out about their customs etc, which usually is the purpose of such a holiday. If Bali was the same as a visit to the Cotswolds, why would I be interested? My point is that one can appreciate different cultures, enjoy the experience for its worth and then come back home to your comfort zone. I have done that without the slightest problem in several countries for over 30 years and know that I am right. Frankly, if you think the outbursts of a self-important moron in some link is going to make me or anyone else like me start feeling guilty about their views and start believing in this one-world nonsense, think again.


Well this "moron" tells you to keep hating England in sports. We get ya. We all get ya. We really do. They're all arrogant yobs - I heard you a long way out. As a citizen you want England to do well politically and economically cos it in YOUR self interest, but you don't want the rest of the country to be happy with sports because SPORTS while close to the height of PATRIOTISM is different. You want them to lose everything. And if all England sports support is different for you, and you have no reason you can explain, it just means you're different from the masses. Right? And you even took the thread there too with "ethnically different".

But I also know not everyone in your demographics is like you. I just feel for the kind loving person who receives the backlash you help cause. Because hate just leads to further hate. It's human nature. But you don't care about their integratory future experiences right? Because you had it bad, so they can too, right?

So stuff the next Monty Panesar, Sammit Patel, Nasser Hussain, Moeen Ali or Adil Rashid. Stuff the lot of them right? But they still want their England on occasion to win? Don't they?

And Bali is not expensive as against Cotwolds - you just conflated travel cost with the cost of everything else. You meant personally expensive.

You had it rough, cannot lie, you did, you tell us at every opportunity openly and candidly, but let me tell you that you come across so selfish and hateful to the point you want your own country to lose at every sport all the time. My lord. You do nothing at all to support the cause for migrants. Nothing. You just fuel reasons to be against it based on pre-existing hate of different religions and colours.

But some of those with different religions and colours want to migrate, and want to love their new or re-new country. And want to see them win things that are not about politics or money, but just patriotic and happy. Not you, though. No - not you. Someone tried to cancel your holiday and someone else didn't return a xmas card. So stuff England ever winning any sport ever again, right?
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Katto
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Re: immigration

Postby Katto » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:29 am

Going South wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Nah - its simple history, if you have a group populace all the same colour and religion, you still end up with social classes hating each other in a market economy.

The solution to this tried was communism and NAZIsm - but the secret police and concentration camps and the lack of food under communism made it far less desirable in effect - the lack of democratic power made it an autocratic regime.

Haters will always find reasons to hate. Stop hating.

Yep.
Protestants vs Catholics
Sunni vs Shia
Upper class hindu vs dalits

Haters will always find reasons to hate.

If you can blur those lines by mixed race all around, you start accepting the diversity, first step towards one world.


I protest to being called a hater by this hater and having my responses removed.

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Re: immigration

Postby Daanav » Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:46 am

Katto wrote:I protest to being called a hater by this hater and having my responses removed.


You are responding to bear-baiting, which is usually the intention. Sometimes simply ignoring the whole topic of discussion works much better.