The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Loose halo » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:36 pm

Dunno what cliche to use here. How about?

"Game in state of flux"

Australia now favourites with bookies followed closely by draw.

England out the gate at 5.50.seems mighty generous.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby MikeR68 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:56 pm

baggygreenmania wrote:Hazlewood was the pick of the bowlers. Consistency is still evading him but was with the pressure building spell s he bowled Vince and Stoneman. Haze has overtaken Cummins as the enforcer. Could have had him at least four times. Talk about heads dropping.. Poms must have been besides themselves when they wasted that 260+ knock of Baistow and Malan by losing 6-25.

This batting machine continues on his relentless way. Yet another half ton for Smith. The guy is a freak.


WOW Baggers....are you related to Hazlewood, is it just a man crush or is it just your pro-NSW supporter colours showing ?
Last 14 innings Hazlewood has taken 19 wickets, and the history books have numerous bowlers to have been dropped with better returns. Doug Bollinger was dropped after 23 innings with 50 wickets. Jackson Bird 16 innings 38 wickets. James Faulkner has 6 wickets from 2 innings. Remember Scott "Can't bowl, Can't field" Muller 7 wickets from 4 innings. These players all have similar returns just not given any significant opportunities, and it makes Hazlewood even worse because of the experience he does have 34 tests 63 innings and this is the return he is supplying, very poor! Very inconsistent performance by Josh Hazlewood you expect looking through history that most bowlers supply a return of approximately 50 wickets per 12 tests consistently throughout their careers.

This year alone Starc and Cummins have just about caught Hazlewood with the number of wickets taken but haven't played the games he has.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ;type=year

If you rate Hazlewood an "enforcer" I would expect figures like Kagiso Rabada, Neil Wagner, Morne Morkel, Shannon Gabriel, Trent Boult and even James Anderson along with Starc and Cummins. On the above list Hazlewood and Broad stand out like dog's testicles simply due to the number of innings bowled compared to those around them. They have both had numerous opportunities 16 innings equates to 160 potential wickets and Hazlewood has taken 26 (that's a paltry 16% so you need 6 bowlers if you find that acceptable). Give any first class bowler enough games they will take numerous wickets and they will break records.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/conten ... 83532.html
Notice on this list of fastest to 150 wickets all the legends but there's no Mitchell Starc, Jimmy Anderson or Stuart Broad. Nor will Josh Hazlewood make this list as he will probably have to take 20 wickets in his next 2 tests, not impossible but highly unlikely.

If you then look at the list for fastest to 200 wickets which basically has all bowlers to take 200 wickets notice how Broad and Anderson appear but most bowlers do it from between 44 to 50 tests, but for them it took a bit longer, as it did for Courtney Walsh who broke many records but it took him a while.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/conten ... 83534.html

No Baggers Hazlewood is a good No 3 bowler, no more than that, and based on how he and Starc wasted the 2nd new ball in this test no wickets were taken by either (Cummins only bowled 2 overs in the first 20 with the 2nd new ball when the opportunities to take wickets were the best, and it was Starc and Hazlewood that were given the luxury of bowling with the best conditions available, not Cummins, he got a wearing ball to bowl with).It's time to treat Hazlewood as the bowler he is and give the new ball to Starc and Cummins the true "enforcers of the pace attack".....well Starc is, Cummins still need time to decide what potential he has. And it was Lyon and Cummins that started the rot for England and then Smith bought Starc and Hazlewood back to clean up the tail, and improve their wicket tallies (they were 2/90 and 1/80 respectively not really what you want to see from the leaders of the pack).

For the record fastest to 100 wickets http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/conten ... 83530.html no Starc Hazlewood Anderson or Broad, but I do notice a fellow by the name of Ryan Harris the only true "best line and length bowler since Glenn McGrath" and he did it on two busted knees, so you might want to give that statement away as well. You might want to change it to "Hazlewood the best line and length bowler since Ryan Harris", but you may get some argument from Jackson Bird supporters, I don't which way I would go on that argument.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Loose halo » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:58 am

Points for effort for the big three.

Cummins 9.1
Hazlewood 9
Starc 8.5

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Mick180461 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:53 am

Loose halo wrote:Dunno what cliche to use here. How about?

"Game in state of flux"

Australia now favourites with bookies followed closely by draw.

England out the gate at 5.50.seems mighty generous.

Jesus not bad odds for a side leading by 200 runs against a side with a propensity to collapse. England have a good score on the board Australia does not yet, England could swing this match with Smiths wkt early and a pretty iffy 6 & 7 to come.
I've got England in front at this stage.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Mick180461 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:10 am

Don't know what's worse Baggers pro NSW attitude or Mike's anti NSW attitude. Sorry Mike I can not agree with your statement that Hazlewood is at best a No 3 bowler, he is a superb Pace Bowler with a excellent test record bettered by only Lillee, Lindwall, Harris, McGrath, Davidson and Miller among Australians since 1920 and superior to any Qld born bowler. When fit Harris was the better Bowler but unfortunately his career like Bruce Reid's before him was ruined because he couldn't stay fit.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:35 am

deleted post.
Last edited by baggygreenmania on Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Katto » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:44 am

Yorkshire wrote:
Katto wrote:Typical dogged South African innings by Dawid Malan. He reminds me of Faf Du Plessis, a mirror image.


Shame Australian cricket board still need helps from “HANDSCOMB - THE CATCHER “ to break big stand of 231 or so, poor Fielding by home team


agreed
the slip cordon is a mess at the moment

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Yorkshire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:51 am

Congratulation S.Smith hits his 22nd century in 59 tests his 7 th vs England

:yoohoo: : :punter4: :love: :balle: :hotoveryou:

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Yorkshire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:55 am

Katto wrote:
Yorkshire wrote:
Shame Australian cricket board still need helps from “HANDSCOMB - THE CATCHER “ to break big stand of 231 or so, poor Fielding by home team


agreed
the slip cordon is a mess at the moment


India dropped 6 catches in the slips in one of test vs SL,Kohli keep changing Fielder at slips not helps India so far,

I can not see good performance by Indians from jan.5th in SOA

I think HandscomB and Rahane best Slips Fielder around

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:07 am

Steven Devreau Smith is a bloody phenomenum!!!

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:10 am

Agree. Problem with dropping Renshaw and Handscomb is we lost two good slippers. Mitch Marsh should be sent to fine leg after his shocker yesterday.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby MikeR68 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:32 am

Mick180461 wrote:Don't know what's worse Baggers pro NSW attitude or Mike's anti NSW attitude. Sorry Mike I can not agree with your statement that Hazlewood is at best a No 3 bowler, he is a superb Pace Bowler with a excellent test record bettered by only Lillee, Lindwall, Harris, McGrath, Davidson and Miller among Australians since 1920 and superior to any Qld born bowler. When fit Harris was the better Bowler but unfortunately his career like Bruce Reid's before him was ruined because he couldn't stay fit.


Glenn McGrath 243 innings for 563 wickets
Craig McDermott 124 innings (51% of what McGrath bowled) what's 51 % of 563.... 287. How many wickets did McDermott take? 291 wasn't it, so you can say McDermott is on par with McGrath, you can even say McDermott was slightly better, but there is no way you can say McDermott was worse than McGrath, afterall McGrath was 3rd bowler behind McDermott and Hughes and McDermott played his final couple of seasons with injury.

Mitchell Johnson twice named ICC player of the year, took his 150 test wicket in his 34th test, which is the current test Hazlewood is playing. Good luck to him taking 22 wickets in the next innings. Though Nice try Mick, Thanks for playing!

NB Graham McKenzie, Bill Johnston, Jeff Thomson, Terry Alderman, Merv Hughes, Brett Lee are all missing from your list and that's about most of the bowlers to have played more tests than Hazlewood, and ALL OF THEM TOOK THEIR 150TH WICKET by 36 tests. After 34 tests Josh Reginald Hazlewood has 128 and even if he does manage to take another 22 wickets before the end of the series he barely scraps in. He is on par with Mitchell Starc, Jason Gillespie and the mighty Geoff Lawson, and believe it or not that really is basically all the pace bowlers to have played more tests than Josh for Australia. Starc is coming good now...took him long enough, but really Gillespie and Lawson were No3 bowlers and both ended up dropped. Josh is one of the worst wicket taking bowlers that have been given so much opportunity and it is all about the ability to take wickets, it's test cricket not the shorter form of the game where economy rates may mean something, it only means staying out in the field longer at test level. Lacks consistency that all the previous bowlers showed throughout their careers. Even when Johnson retired he said he wasn't bowling well enough to be considered as Australian standard bowler. He took 3/177 in his final test compared to Josh's 1/137, Hats off to Mitch he knew when he was bowling poorly. So as I said Hazlewood is hardly an "enforcer" that Baggers makes him out to be.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:44 am

Don't know what's worse Baggers pro NSW attitude???

Not me Mick. I push my barrow for the deserving cricketer. Whether he is from Blues territory or a Bull, Redback or Tiger. If he has earned a Baggy Green he gets my vote. I certainly do not profess to any bias by selectors.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Katto » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:22 am

with such value for shots at WACA apply 75% to scores in this match for a more realistic perspective on where its at.
England's first innings was equivalent to 300

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:40 am

Good start to the Mitch Marsh return. Still going hard at the ball in defence. Slow learner.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:42 am

So as I said Hazlewood is hardly an "enforcer" that Baggers makes him out to be.
Mike. I would call Hazlewood's short pitched examination of Stoneman as enforcing. Did not see Starc nor our quickest Cummins provide so many scares for the leftie as that "mediocre 3rd pacemen Hazlewood". Gotta tell you I was surprised how fast and menacing Haze looked. Should have had Stoneman at least three times.

I do admit tho Haze is bowling in two minds at the moment which is reflected in his inconsistent performances over
the past year. Have also noticed he struggles for wickets more against left handers.. When Hazlewood is concentrating on his main strength..nagging, pressure building line/length which drove Vince to distraction, there is no mystery why he is so lofily rated.
Last edited by baggygreenmania on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Katto » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:43 am

Mitch Marsh can get away with it here - I hope he was just picked for this test and no more as its a shrewd horses for courses selection (which katto predicted :P )

the technique on display will get plenty of runs at the WACA but will fail elsewhere - this is why selectors shouldnt just look at raw stats when selecting players - other factors have to be considered

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:54 am

Yes horses for courses. No one else tho has put up his hand for this role. His technique in general looks more solid. Looking to let more balls go and crunches anything in his scoring zone. But the hard hands still worry me. As you say the big test will be decks with some movement in the air or off the seam.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Loose halo » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:01 am

Katto wrote:with such value for shots at WACA apply 75% to scores in this match for a more realistic perspective on where its at.
England's first innings was equivalent to 300



So very true and especially with pace from the Aussie quicks to work with.

The MCG will test the English batsmen's scoring rate.

Regarding Mitch we need an allrounder at 6 for the next test and he has bowled OK in this one.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Katto » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:09 am

the MCG lately has been my least favourite Aussie test ground such is the deadness of the pitch and generally dull matches that have been played there over the past decade

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Mick180461 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:30 am

MikeR68 wrote:
Mick180461 wrote:Don't know what's worse Baggers pro NSW attitude or Mike's anti NSW attitude. Sorry Mike I can not agree with your statement that Hazlewood is at best a No 3 bowler, he is a superb Pace Bowler with a excellent test record bettered by only Lillee, Lindwall, Harris, McGrath, Davidson and Miller among Australians since 1920 and superior to any Qld born bowler. When fit Harris was the better Bowler but unfortunately his career like Bruce Reid's before him was ruined because he couldn't stay fit.


Glenn McGrath 243 innings for 563 wickets
Craig McDermott 124 innings (51% of what McGrath bowled) what's 51 % of 563.... 287. How many wickets did McDermott take? 291 wasn't it, so you can say McDermott is on par with McGrath, you can even say McDermott was slightly better, but there is no way you can say McDermott was worse than McGrath, afterall McGrath was 3rd bowler behind McDermott and Hughes and McDermott played his final couple of seasons with injury.

Mitchell Johnson twice named ICC player of the year, took his 150 test wicket in his 34th test, which is the current test Hazlewood is playing. Good luck to him taking 22 wickets in the next innings. Though Nice try Mick, Thanks for playing!

NB Graham McKenzie, Bill Johnston, Jeff Thomson, Terry Alderman, Merv Hughes, Brett Lee are all missing from your list and that's about most of the bowlers to have played more tests than Hazlewood, and ALL OF THEM TOOK THEIR 150TH WICKET by 36 tests. After 34 tests Josh Reginald Hazlewood has 128 and even if he does manage to take another 22 wickets before the end of the series he barely scraps in. He is on par with Mitchell Starc, Jason Gillespie and the mighty Geoff Lawson, and believe it or not that really is basically all the pace bowlers to have played more tests than Josh for Australia. Starc is coming good now...took him long enough, but really Gillespie and Lawson were No3 bowlers and both ended up dropped. Josh is one of the worst wicket taking bowlers that have been given so much opportunity and it is all about the ability to take wickets, it's test cricket not the shorter form of the game where economy rates may mean something, it only means staying out in the field longer at test level. Lacks consistency that all the previous bowlers showed throughout their careers. Even when Johnson retired he said he wasn't bowling well enough to be considered as Australian standard bowler. He took 3/177 in his final test compared to Josh's 1/137, Hats off to Mitch he knew when he was bowling poorly. So as I said Hazlewood is hardly an "enforcer" that Baggers makes him out to be.

They all got 150 wkts faster than Hazlewood, so what? By your definition Ray Lindwall 228 wkts in 63 tests was a poor bowler. The only definition you are using is Wkts per match, don't you think Runs per Wkt, Balls per Wkt, Runs per over are also important.
Its the combination of all 4 is why I rate Hazlewood, yes some of them have better balls per wkt rate but at 2-4 runs more per wkt. only those I named have better runs per wkt and RPOs

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Loose halo » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:08 am

Didn't Lindwall average 22 runs per wicket. Must check.

23.03 pretty darned good.
Last edited by Loose halo on Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Katto » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:11 am

LOL Jimmy

that one actually looked like it could've been out, but he bowled a no ball :lmao:

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Katto » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:12 am

no other sport do we celebrate meaningless individual milestones like 100's :lol:

its nothing more than a stat which is a byline to the actual relative team scores

we don't see a player celebrate a triple double in basketball

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:28 am

Mitch Marsh take a bow. :hatsoff:

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Verity » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:44 am

Shane Watson would get 50 and it'd buy him 20 Tests so whats a 150+ score buy Mitch Marsh :lol:
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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Boycs » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:52 am

Awake to find this shit. Going back to bed.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Verity » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:05 am

This pitch is a disgrace
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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Boycs » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:46 am

Well played Australia. I’m off to follow darts instead. www.dartforum.com is the new forum

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:50 am

Boycs wrote:Well played Australia. I’m off to follow darts instead. http://www.dartforum.com is the new forum


Haha
"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:06 am

No taking foot off the throat this time Smithy. What a day baggies.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Loose halo » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:14 am

The forecast is 4 to 10 ml Sunday and Monday.

Run your lawn sprinkler for an hour and you get that.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby bolero » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:15 pm

England are at their worst when.demoralised.This is demoralizing.I expect Cook to fail again when England bat.He is a batsman who makes hay when going is good like Rohit Sharma.Put him under pressure with Starc, Cummins and Hazlewood relentless, he will lose his mojo.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 pm

Was that Mitch Marsh batting today or were we watching an imposter? When sent to the wilderness 9months ago Marsh was a joke. He made poor batting appear natural..playing at everything with hard hands, nicking balls he should have left. The imposter Mitch Marsh was composed, confident, solid in defence, shouldered arms to the good ball and murdered everything in his hitting zone..
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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby raja » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:51 pm

Just when England look totally down and out, they come back with a magical performance to turn the game completely on its head.
This is a vulnerable Aussie side - I expect it to collapse second time round, handing over the Test to England.
Think Headingley 1981.

2-1 still very much on the cards.
Congrats, Boycs!

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:59 pm

Have you taken up comedy raja. Baggies will smash another quickfire 75/80 tomorrow morning, then Smithy will unleash our trio of quicks on a demoralized England on a WACA deck that is cracking up and offering variable bounce.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Paddles » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:02 pm

What Steve Smith looked like when he started in international cricket:





What Steve Smith looks like today with a test batting average over 60:

"Your inclination to assume and contradict is typical of Narcissism which is nothing about being pretty like the Narcissus fable."

HAHA!

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Katto » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:26 pm

Loose halo wrote:The forecast is 4 to 10 ml Sunday and Monday.

Run your lawn sprinkler for an hour and you get that.


I can't remember the last time rain affected a test match in Perth - if ever in my lifetime

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby raja » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:55 pm

baggygreenmania wrote:Have you taken up comedy raja. Baggies will smash another quickfire 75/80 tomorrow morning, then Smithy will unleash our trio of quicks on a demoralized England on a WACA deck that is cracking up and offering variable bounce.

:grin:
I live in morbid fear of England winning.
Which is why I always believe they will turn around any game, however hopeless their case might look to others.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Katto » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:29 pm

So what does Smith do from here?

bearing in mind the WACA gives you 33% more for shots and the pitch is a road
bearing in mind there's some rain forecast
bearing in mind Australia don't want to bat last as conditions could change for the worse

I'm thinking ideally you'd want a 400 run lead (equivalent to 300 runs in a normal place)
That means batting on to 800 and declaring at tea, then trying to bowl England out in 4 sessions.

Otherwise you'd want at least 700 and hope England just give up trying to establish a lead

Smith being conservative will probably declare at lunch with about a 250 lead

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Mick180461 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:26 pm

Katto wrote:So what does Smith do from here?

bearing in mind the WACA gives you 33% more for shots and the pitch is a road
bearing in mind there's some rain forecast
bearing in mind Australia don't want to bat last as conditions could change for the worse

I'm thinking ideally you'd want a 400 run lead (equivalent to 300 runs in a normal place)
That means batting on to 800 and declaring at tea, then trying to bowl England out in 4 sessions.

Otherwise you'd want at least 700 and hope England just give up trying to establish a lead

Smith being conservative will probably declare at lunch with about a 250 lead

I think Smith will want a short burst at the English batsman before Lunch, 40 mins or so.
A quick bit of Trivia, 229 is the lowest score no one has ever finished a test innings on.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby MikeR68 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:31 pm

Mick180461 wrote:

They all got 150 wkts faster than Hazlewood, so what? By your definition Ray Lindwall 228 wkts in 63 tests was a poor bowler. The only definition you are using is Wkts per match, don't you think Runs per Wkt, Balls per Wkt, Runs per over are also important.
Its the combination of all 4 is why I rate Hazlewood, yes some of them have better balls per wkt rate but at 2-4 runs more per wkt. only those I named have better runs per wkt and RPOs


Ray Lindwall is there Mick, and he falls into the same category as Brett Lee which I have no problem with, not that I ever saw him play it's not like I am 100 years old. Sure he's not as productive as Lillee, Thompson, McGrath, McDermott or Johnson based on stats alone and to suggest he was a better bowler than those 5 is only your opinion and as he is a NSWman I'm sure you're going to say he was the best and I'll take that opinion with a grain of salt. But in support of you and Lindwall he only bowled 113 innings, I prefer number of innings over matches when comparing eras they lost a lot of time back then. My opinion based on footage i've seen of him is Lindwall was a borderline "chucker" and a persistent no-baller, which is a form of cheating, but what do you expect from a NSWman. Before you argue check out this footage and the freeze frame at 1.06. notice the bent arm....chucker! And how big is the no-ball....like WOW, how many wickets did he take from no-balls in today's conditions. No wonder he took so many wickets at an economical rate he was releasing the ball from half way down the pitch. Actually now my opinion of Lindwall is at an all-time low, he wasn't that great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awz2KyMzELg

Then check out footage of Ian Meckiff who was called for chucking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy-pWB9OIr8 I don't see much difference!

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Mick180461 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:57 pm

MikeR68 wrote:
Mick180461 wrote:

They all got 150 wkts faster than Hazlewood, so what? By your definition Ray Lindwall 228 wkts in 63 tests was a poor bowler. The only definition you are using is Wkts per match, don't you think Runs per Wkt, Balls per Wkt, Runs per over are also important.
Its the combination of all 4 is why I rate Hazlewood, yes some of them have better balls per wkt rate but at 2-4 runs more per wkt. only those I named have better runs per wkt and RPOs


Ray Lindwall is there Mick, and he falls into the same category as Brett Lee which I have no problem with, not that I ever saw him play it's not like I am 100 years old. Sure he's not as productive as Lillee, Thompson, McGrath, McDermott or Johnson based on stats alone and to suggest he was a better bowler than those 5 is only your opinion and as he is a NSWman I'm sure you're going to say he was the best and I'll take that opinion with a grain of salt. But in support of you and Lindwall he only bowled 113 innings, I prefer number of innings over matches when comparing eras they lost a lot of time back then. My opinion based on footage i've seen of him is Lindwall was a borderline "chucker" and a persistent no-baller, which is a form of cheating, but what do you expect from a NSWman. Before you argue check out this footage and the freeze frame at 1.06. notice the bent arm....chucker! And how big is the no-ball....like WOW, how many wickets did he take from no-balls in today's conditions. No wonder he took so many wickets at an economical rate he was releasing the ball from half way down the pitch. Actually now my opinion of Lindwall is at an all-time low, he wasn't that great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awz2KyMzELg

Then check out footage of Ian Meckiff who was called for chucking https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy-pWB9OIr8 I don't see much difference![
delete post

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby MikeR68 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:10 pm

That's the best comeback you can come up with Mick. Obviously I've hit a raw spot pointing out problems with Lindwall and you can't find fault with my claims, but appreciate Mick that unless I've seen the player live I can only go by the existing footage and why I rarely comment on players from the distant past, you would hate to hear my opinion on Bradman...like how dare the English bowl at the body instead of constantly outside off, today's player would smack it out of the park. Problem with your comeback Mick is that I live here in Qld so there is a problem on where to shove it, the sun is always shining up here.

I see you deleted your post Mick, very wise!

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Mick180461 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:40 pm

A Chucker is a Bowler who straightens a bent arm at the release point. Yes Lindwalls arm was slightly bent but he didn't straighten it at the release point and I haven't seen any evidence Meckiff did either. Meckiff was used as a Scapegoat at a time when Chucking was an issue.
Mike every Bowler before 1960 bowled no balls under todays conditions, why, because they bowled under the BACK FOOT NO BALL rule which was changed around 1960 to the FRONT FOOT NO BALL rule due to the fact that Bowlers like Gordon Rorke would land behind the BACK LINE and drag his back foot yards down the PItch with his front foot legally a yard over the frontline and release from about 20-21 yards at 90+ MPH.
The teams Lindwall played in would have 3-4 Allrounders starting with Miller coming in at 4 or 5 so Australia would have up to 6 genuine Frontline Bowlers so chances of taking large hauls were much rarer. Basic Stats are not always as clear cut as they seem, using one Stat only is a very poor way to judge a player.
Lindwall is a great Bowler on my opinion only? Ask the opinion of those who saw him or played with him, I have never heard the likes of Benaud or Davidson say he wasn't(but they are only NSW men so there opinion doesn't really count). Far to many of those who saw him rate him to highly to ignore them.

Mike sorry about the previous post, it was out of line.
You cant judge any player on a handful of Videos, spend some time reading and listening to those that did see past players or even played against them then judge a player. Your No Ball comment is a perfect example of someone who has judged something only on a Video they saw on YouTube and got it completely wrong.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Loose halo » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:44 pm

Lindwall bowled under the back foot rule of course.

I have spoken to dozens of old timers and they all agree he was at least as express as Lillee and had an outswinger.The keeper had to stand very deep said one.

Trueman described his action as a Symphony. Wes Hall said as a child watching Lindwall he shed tears watching him destroy his countrymen at the crease.

Miller and Lindwall in combination were rated by Denis Compton as frightening.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby Loose halo » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:50 pm

The Perth radar shows spotty light showers ATM a lot of it passing south of Perth.

Google BOM.

Odds

Australia 1.60

Draw 2.35


England 101.00

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:14 pm

With this unsetled weather around today and Monday Smithy should get quicks runs this morning then declare and put them back in on this wearing deck and unleash our attack dogs on a demoralized England.

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby MikeR68 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:44 pm

Mick180461 wrote:A Chucker is a Bowler who straightens a bent arm at the release point. Yes Lindwalls arm was slightly bent but he didn't straighten it at the release point and I haven't seen any evidence Meckiff did either. Meckiff was used as a Scapegoat at a time when Chucking was an issue.
Mike every Bowler before 1960 bowled no balls under todays conditions, why, because they bowled under the BACK FOOT NO BALL rule which was changed around 1960 to the FRONT FOOT NO BALL rule due to the fact that Bowlers like Gordon Rorke would land behind the BACK LINE and drag his back foot yards down the PItch with his front foot legally a yard over the frontline and release from about 20-21 yards at 90+ MPH.
The teams Lindwall played in would have 3-4 Allrounders starting with Miller coming in at 4 or 5 so Australia would have up to 6 genuine Frontline Bowlers so chances of taking large hauls were much rarer. Basic Stats are not always as clear cut as they seem, using one Stat only is a very poor way to judge a player.
Lindwall is a great Bowler on my opinion only? Ask the opinion of those who saw him or played with him, I have never heard the likes of Benaud or Davidson say he wasn't(but they are only NSW men so there opinion doesn't really count). Far to many of those who saw him rate him to highly to ignore them.

Mike sorry about the previous post, it was out of line.
You cant judge any player on a handful of Videos, spend some time reading and listening to those that did see past players or even played against them then judge a player. Your No Ball comment is a perfect example of someone who has judged something only on a Video they saw on YouTube and got it completely wrong.


No problems Mick, I wear those comments as a badge of pride. I agree with you on everything, thus why I don't compare eras, especially when I haven't seen them play myself and only go by hear say. But the problem with hear say is of course Benaud or Davidson will say he was the best because they played against him and of course they played against the best. I wonder how these players would have handled Lillee or Thompson or Johnson. Mind you Larwood did have a good bowling action. And the video shows why they changed to front foot rule, it was a bit over the top.

Back to the original argument. The problem I have with Josh Hazlewood is the following... Jackson Bird if you look at his test record is very good.( 8 tests 34 wickets @ 27) Josh Hazlewood has played 4.25 times the number of tests at 34 and is sitting at 128 wickets. But if Bird was given the same number of tests he could be, but nothing is certain, sitting on 145 wickets (thus matching all previous bowlers records) which could have been the difference between a lost test and a won test and we have lost quite a few tests recently, Bangladesh was a low point. As I say to Baggers continuously how long do you give someone before enough is enough and loyalty has to give way to an opportunity for someone that has been successful such as Bird. And Mick, I don't rate Bird personally but he has never let Australia down, so far. You have to award performance on field and for a bowler it purely is taking wickets primarily and to do it at an economical rate if possible and if too expensive they are dropped, but wickets first and foremost, economy is whether you stay in the side and will vary depending on the quality of the opposition.

Ultimately Josh Hazlewood is awarded the approaching 2 million dollar per year contract and others miss out. He can thank Steve Smith as can the rest of the Australian team for the big money they get, because if it wasn't for Smith there would be big questions being asked and those questions are there, thus why the Australian have lost so many tests recently. Only Smith, Starc and Lyon are deserving currently of their big pays. As for England, I think they should be paying England Cricket for the privilege of playing for England. I can't believe I paid good money to see this garbage

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Re: The Ashes (Australia vs England): 3rd Test; Dec 14-18, 2017 at Perth

Postby baggygreenmania » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:45 am

Mike...whether you rate him or not there have been three clutch moments in the three tests where Hazlewood has stamped his class. I may not remember all the names, even times but firstly his two quick wickets late on third day? at the Gabba.. when he got Root? and Vince in a matter of a couple of overs and changed the game. Same thing in Adelaide with the quick wickets of Root? and and Stoneman? first thing day three/four? At that stage England were well in the game after Smithy let them off the hook by not enforcing the follow on. Thirdly in the first innings here in Perth how Hazlewood drove Vince to distraction and finally a false shot after four successive maiden overs of probing, nagging bowling. Then that menacing spell of chin music the big man dished out to Stoneman. Surely this sent a worrying signal to the England camp that our line/length man could also intimidate. Reckon Josh even surprised himself with the pace and searing bounce he generated. This told me that Haze was not only a one dimensional bowler but could also adapt his game when there was little in the track to assist him. Surely even you Mike would have been impressed by those three moments in the first three absorbing Tests..
Last edited by baggygreenmania on Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.