First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby bolero » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:32 am

Just to clarify, I have not seen this stumping.I am just stating what the rule book says.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:46 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
There is no doubt when you have video evidence. You have to make a decision one way or the other.
This only applies for un-sighted on field umpires.

Batsman would only be given not out if the video malfunctioned.


Dumb dumb, if there was no doubt with video evidence, why did Michael Clarke and a significant number of cricket fans in the UK on twitter opine that there was?

Seriously. Video evidence is regularly giving rise to doubt especially in cricket, but rugby league and many sports.

But for clarity in case you are under some misapprehension, the laws of cricket do not assume nor state that video will remove all doubt. The same laws of cricket apply to the third umpire with regard stumpings.


Funny how you can call anyone dumb after seeing what you regularly post here. A significant number of cricket fans in the UK :lmao: as your evidence. Many of them are probably as clueless as you are.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:01 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Dumb dumb, if there was no doubt with video evidence, why did Michael Clarke and a significant number of cricket fans in the UK on twitter opine that there was?

Seriously. Video evidence is regularly giving rise to doubt especially in cricket, but rugby league and many sports.

But for clarity in case you are under some misapprehension, the laws of cricket do not assume nor state that video will remove all doubt. The same laws of cricket apply to the third umpire with regard stumpings.


Funny how you can call anyone dumb after seeing what you regularly post here. A significant number of cricket fans in the UK :lmao: as your evidence. Many of them are probably as clueless as you are.


Katto, if you believe that you saw with your eyes, clear visible evidence that removed any doubt that the batsman had no part of his foot grounded behind the line, then say so.

But to do so, you will be challenging Michael Clarke, and a whole host of people who watching the same footage, were not so satisfied.

As I posted earlier,

"On the line is out - but the benefit of the doubt must go with the batsman.

Slats and Warne say out. Clarke says not out.

Twitter and cricket.org are already blowing up.

I don't care to involve myself in this fight - I'm still trying to get over Nigel Llong not giving Nathan Lyon out in Adelaide 2015/16 first innings."


Now with your ridiculous claim that the benefit of the doubt going to the batsman is not in the existence of the rules of cricket, and then claiming that video removes the possible existence of doubt for cricket decisions, I have used this most recent example to demonstrate that video does not always remove the existence of doubt to people. Umpires are people. Fans watching are people. Commentators are people. The camera angles and lens capabilities do not always provide evidence that removes doubt. But most the time, for most decisions, they do.

Katto, to be clear, I do not wish to debate Ali's dismissal with you. I was just correcting you as to your erroneous claim of the the batsman to get the benefit of the doubt on appeals not appearing anywhere in the laws of cricket as wrong. It is explicitly there, and even if a recent express addition to the rules, it has long been a interpretation principle of the cricket rules, regardless.

Katto, I am not going to apologise for calling you "dumb dumb". You were wrong. You illogically called me illogical when I wasn't. And you are too swift and rude with your insults of "should be disbarred" and ad hominem usage of "another Paddles special" to expect any thing less back.

If you want disagree with me in future whilst being polite, I'll be polite back. If you want to throw insults while stuffing up basic logic, expect the likelihood you may get called "dumb dumb" by me in response.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:45 am

look at this dead cat bounce :lol:

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:51 am

Katto wrote:look at this dead cat bounce :lol:


31.6 :D

No rule nor icc directive stating video will always remove doubt. :D

Thinking video always removes doubt :D

And my personal favourite, your implicit claim a third umpire stumping referral is determined under a different set of rules as there is no possibility of doubt with video. :D

Try and save face all you like Katto.
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:19 am, edited 5 times in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Yorkshire » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:56 am

Cong Australia for the 1/0 in Advance tomorrow, victory will be very important for Australia because BRISBANE TEST LAST EVER TEST HERE,NO MORE :nono: TESTS WILL BE STAGE HERE.

Gabba -Brisbane will be only use for ODI but not test matches.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Yorkshire » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:07 am

bolero wrote:Just to clarify, I have not seen this stumping.I am just stating what the rule book says.


Close Decision goes toward batsman on run out, not on Stumping.plus Mo's Foot was on line not inside so its out

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Verity » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:08 am

Is Root always a shit captain? defending 170 he hasn't attacked at all, deep cover first ball too Warner FFS
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Boycs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:11 am

Congratulations Australia 1:0 up.

A few good fights by England but unfortunately not enough to resist Australia at home. I was surprised a little by how it was our weak links were the ones that prospered in this test. But n inability to overcome smith and two cook failures plus one root failure made it all too difficult. Smith is just a machine

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Boycs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:12 am

Verity wrote:Is Root always a shit captain? defending 170 he hasn't attacked at all, deep cover first ball too Warner FFS


He’s probably a bit panicked

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:15 am

Boycs wrote:Congratulations Australia 1:0 up.

A few good fights by England but unfortunately not enough to resist Australia at home. I was surprised a little by how it was our weak links were the ones that prospered in this test. But n inability to overcome smith and two cook failures plus one root failure made it all too difficult. Smith is just a machine


So question - will England drop Ball for the better batting of Overton or bring in a specialist bat instead?

Woakes at 8 is no Ali.

Don't envy England losing their Stokes/Ali balance they've had since start of 2015 home summer.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Yorkshire » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:19 am

Verity wrote:Is Root always a shit captain? defending 170 he hasn't attacked at all, deep cover first ball too Warner FFS

You can not blame captain if his sides lost 6 for 54 // + 6 for 82 they have to finds solution and return with win in 2nd test, is it Road at Adelaide?

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Boycs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:21 am

He did go at over four an over but I don’t think our batting hinges on the ability of our tail end - or at least it shouldn’t! - and rash knee jerk decisions aren’t the way forward even if we lose by ten wickets.

Keep calm and do your best in the next test. No one expected you to win down under, your not good enough to, just play well enough to be proud of your tour.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Verity » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:25 am

haha that stumping earlier was harsh, no way that was out, line wasnt straight for one lol
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Verity » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:28 am

Yorkshire wrote:
Verity wrote:Is Root always a shit captain? defending 170 he hasn't attacked at all, deep cover first ball too Warner FFS

You can not blame captain if his sides lost 6 for 54 // + 6 for 82 they have to finds solution and return with win in 2nd test, is it Road at Adelaide?


Adelaide is usually the best batting pitch but generally always a result
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:30 am

Boycs wrote:He did go at over four an over but I don’t think our batting hinges on the ability of our tail end - or at least it shouldn’t! - and rash knee jerk decisions aren’t the way forward even if we lose by ten wickets.

Keep calm and do your best in the next test. No one expected you to win down under, your not good enough to, just play well enough to be proud of your tour.


Well as inspiring as that speech would be for the team, a team ought to put their best chance to win forward.

And lets face it, England was in the contest at the half way stage which was not necessarily expected neither.
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:32 am

Verity wrote:haha that stumping earlier was harsh, no way that was out, line wasnt straight for one lol


:popcorn:
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A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Yorkshire » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:33 am

Verity wrote:
Yorkshire wrote:You can not blame captain if his sides lost 6 for 54 // + 6 for 82 they have to finds solution and return with win in 2nd test, is it Road at Adelaide?


Adelaide is usually the best batting pitch but generally always a result

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:35 am

Its not such a great pitch since it went pink.

Before that it was a good batting pitch for 3 and half days then always tough to bat on day 4 and 5

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:35 am

Verity wrote:
Yorkshire wrote:You can not blame captain if his sides lost 6 for 54 // + 6 for 82 they have to finds solution and return with win in 2nd test, is it Road at Adelaide?


Adelaide is usually the best batting pitch but generally always a result


Adelaide was the best, until it went green on top to protect the pink ball day/night tests. Last two tests have seen wickets tumble in the evening sessions.

Swings and seams and spins.
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:37 am

every day of the week out

Image

we're not adjudging no balls here

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Yorkshire » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:38 am

Verity wrote:
Yorkshire wrote:You can not blame captain if his sides lost 6 for 54 // + 6 for 82 they have to finds solution and return with win in 2nd test, is it Road at Adelaide?


Adelaide is usually the best batting pitch but generally always a result

Adelaide too last tests for international test matches, I think same as Brisbane because those tracks only use for ODI now.

114 for 0
début 50* by 'SMG SPECIAL' (He think Cameron best player in Australia after Smith) Bancroft.
Last edited by Yorkshire on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:39 am

Yorkshire wrote:
Verity wrote:
Adelaide is usually the best batting pitch but generally always a result

Adelaide too last tests for international test matches, I think same as Brisbane because those tracks only use for ODI now.


now you're talking shit :lol:

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Yorkshire » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:41 am

Katto wrote:
Yorkshire wrote:Adelaide too last tests for international test matches, I think same as Brisbane because those tracks only use for ODI now.


now you're talking shit :lol:

Brisbane for sure no more tests only ODI
You can ask MS ( former aus opener )

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Boycs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:42 am

Misty is always talking shit

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:47 am

I hope tomorrow isn't washed out with one of those typical Brisbane 'summer' days, because we could've got those runs tonight.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:14 am

Poms are all whingeing about the crease line not being straight.
Very sneaky of the Aussie curators to paint the line in the time between when Moeen faced up and when the delivery was bowled.
It seems their bearded hero of modern England can do no wrong.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:25 am

Image

Some great tweets doing the rounds - "From Body Line to Wobbly Line"

Image
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Loose halo » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:31 am

Nothing unusual for Clarke to favour England probably because he is no longer in the limelight.

THE THIRD UMPIRES VERBAL ACCOUNT WAS BOTH LOGICAL AND ADAMANT.

As Katto says benefit of the doubt is not a factor in a DRS stumping review.

Close scrutiny shows the line was smudged but no part of Ali's heel was BEHIND the line nor did he attempt to regain his ground.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Boycs » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:40 am

Meh I’d claim robbery if that was an Aussie wicket and was given not out

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:58 am

I'm so used to the DRS being unkind (Dharmasena) to us that I take the position of the opposition initially then work back from there.
I made it all the way :)

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby raja » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:01 am

Looks clearly out to me.
No doubt at all, so no question of benefit of doubt.
Superb piece of work by Paine.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:32 am

Loose halo wrote:
As Katto says benefit of the doubt is not a factor in a DRS stumping review.



It isn't a review - it was an umpires referral.

Your statement is wrong. Benefit of the doubt applies to every appeal for anything an umpire has doubts of to an appeal within his jurisdiction.

But seriously, what cricket laws do you think apply to third umpire referrals? If third umpire has doubt due to inconclusive camera angles or video quality - he must give batsman out? You seriously believe this?
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Loose halo » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:44 am

Yes he was out fair and square on my TV.

Big screen on pause his foot was on the line not behind it.
Last edited by Loose halo on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:46 am

Loose halo wrote:Yes split hairs the fact is he was given out by the third umpire.


Asking you what rules you think are used by third umpires after you made a statement about the laws of cricket upon referral is splitting hairs to you?
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Loose halo » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:52 am

It was a judgement call and was his prerogative and duty to make.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:57 am

Loose halo wrote:It was a judgement call and was his prerogative and duty to make.


A third umpire must exercise judgment? True.
He is under a duty to exercise his judgment? True.

So are you saying where a third umpire has doubt - he can exercise his own prerogative and choose whether he wants to give it out or not and the standard rules don't apply?

Prerogative?????

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of this word as you have coupled it with duty. Unless you think the third umpire has a duty to make a judgment but a prerogative as to how to do it that differs from the on field umpires.

You seem to be evading my original and simple question to you. But we're back at the same place albeit now with the privilege of a free and unrestricted choice - a prerogative.

I'll repeat it -

But seriously, what cricket laws do you think apply to third umpire referrals? If third umpire has doubt due to inconclusive camera angles or video quality - he must give batsman out? You seriously believe this?
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:03 am

here we go again :)

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:07 am

Katto wrote:here we go again :)


Tell me about it.

This is your fault. He's agreeing with your erroneous position from earlier. Poor bugger thinks that the laws of cricket are created and existence proven by a popularity contest.
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:10 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:here we go again :)


Tell me about it.

This is your fault. He's agreeing with your erroneous position from earlier. Poor bugger thinks that the laws of cricket are created and existence proven by a popularity contest.


No, that would be you. You were the one that cited Michael Clarke and a range of twitter opinions to support your failing position. :lol:

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:13 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Tell me about it.

This is your fault. He's agreeing with your erroneous position from earlier. Poor bugger thinks that the laws of cricket are created and existence proven by a popularity contest.


No, that would be you. You were the one that cited Michael Clarke and a range of twitter opinions to support your failing position. :lol:


Nopes. I cited Michael Clarke and a range of twitter opinions to demonstrate that video does not remove the possibility of doubt to people despite video.

I'm interested in what you guys think the process is, not the ends.
Last edited by Paddles on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:16 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
No, that would be you. You were the one that cited Michael Clarke and a range of twitter opinions to support your failing position. :lol:


Nopes. I cited Michael Clarke and a range of twitter opinions to demonstrate that video does not remove the possibility of doubt to people. You just don't seem to comprehend this then or now.


There was no doubt in the mind of the third umpire. You only introduced it because of twitter opinions (a popularity contest).

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:18 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
Nopes. I cited Michael Clarke and a range of twitter opinions to demonstrate that video does not remove the possibility of doubt to people. You just don't seem to comprehend this then or now.


There was no doubt in the mind of the third umpire. You only introduced it because of twitter opinions (a popularity contest).


No - I introduced it cos you made the hilarious statement that "there is no doubt when you have video evidence."
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Katto » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:27 am

Paddles wrote:
Katto wrote:
There was no doubt in the mind of the third umpire. You only introduced it because of twitter opinions (a popularity contest).


No - I introduced it cos you made the hilarious statement that "there is no doubt when you have video evidence."


Irrefutable evidence in this case. Just because biased pundits on twitter (and you) who don't understand the laws of the game have an opinion that is different to the third umpire, doesn't mean the third umpire is in any doubt. The law you cited applies to doubt in the mind of the umpire, not in the twitterverse.

If we had it your way, there'd never be a decision made ever.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby bolero » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:37 am

A lot of forum members who saw it say it's out.Katto, Raja,Boycs,Loose Halo etc.

And then there is Paddles who says it's not out.

It's one against many.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:39 am

Katto wrote:
Paddles wrote:
No - I introduced it cos you made the hilarious statement that "there is no doubt when you have video evidence."


Irrefutable evidence in this case. Just because biased pundits on twitter (and you) who don't understand the laws of the game have an opinion that is different to the third umpire, doesn't mean the third umpire is in any doubt. The law you cited applies to doubt in the mind of the umpire, not in the twitterverse.

If we had it your way, there'd never be a decision made ever.


I think what you're trying to say is that the video (all camera angles combined) on this dismissal was conclusive beyond doubt - in which case the third umpire is to give the decision out.

This is different from your hilarious claim that benefit of the doubt for the batsman is not in the rules of cricket.

This is different from your claim that "there is no doubt when you have video evidence.You have to make a decision one or the other... Batsman would only be given not out if the video malfunctioned"

This is also different from Loose Halo's claim in support of you that benefit of the doubt does not apply for batsmen for a third umpire referral of a stumping decision.

Now you have the audacity to claim that I do not understand the law, but now concede that the law I cited applied to doubt in the mind of the third umpire. Correct. I finally got you there to understanding the law. I deserve a gold star. I'm quite proud of myself cos getting something through to you is quite a challenge at times.

But you're wrong, my way is the cited way, if no doubt, give it out, if doubt - not out. Pretty simple.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:42 am

bolero wrote:A lot of forum members who saw it say it's out.Katto, Raja,Boycs,Loose Halo etc.

And then there is Paddles who says it's not out.

It's one against many.


It would be if I ever said it was not out.

You won't find that anywhere.

But even if I were to agree with Michael Clarke and the twittersphere, it would be many vs many outside only the opinion of forum users.

Not that the majority opinion mattered for Galileo being right.

I'm not arguing whether it should be out or not, I'm arguing the benefit of the doubt in favour of the batsman applies to tv referral of stumpings and that benefit of the doubt for the batsman IS IN the rules of cricket.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby bolero » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:46 am

I saw the video on YouTube.Looks out.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby bolero » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:48 am

Paddles wrote:
bolero wrote:A lot of forum members who saw it say it's out.Katto, Raja,Boycs,Loose Halo etc.

And then there is Paddles who says it's not out.

It's one against many.


It would be if I ever said it was not out.

You won't find that anywhere.

But even if I were to agree with Michael Clarke and the twittersphere, it would be many vs many outside only the opinion of forum users.

Not that the majority opinion mattered for Galileo being right.

I'm not arguing whether it should be out or not, I'm arguing the benefit of the doubt in favour of the batsman applies to tv referral of stumpings and that benefit of the doubt for the batsman IS IN the rules of cricket.


If you were the third umpire, you have to give one decision Out or Not Out ? What would you decide ? Come straight to the point, yes or no.

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Re: First Ashes Test Australia v England 23/11/2017.

Postby Paddles » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:49 am

bolero wrote:
Paddles wrote:
It would be if I ever said it was not out.

You won't find that anywhere.

But even if I were to agree with Michael Clarke and the twittersphere, it would be many vs many outside only the opinion of forum users.

Not that the majority opinion mattered for Galileo being right.

I'm not arguing whether it should be out or not, I'm arguing the benefit of the doubt in favour of the batsman applies to tv referral of stumpings and that benefit of the doubt for the batsman IS IN the rules of cricket.


If you were the third umpire, you have to give one decision Out or Not Out ? What would you decide ? Come straight to the point, yes or no.


I would follow the laws, if I had doubt - I would give it not out. If I had no doubt that it was out, I would give it out.

This is the point.
Law 31.6 - benefit of the doubt for an dismissal appeal goes to the batsman
A third umpire call for a run out or stumping is a referral, not a review.