Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Movie news, gossip, movie reviews and music-related discussions.
User avatar
squarecut
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:06 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 3
India

Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby squarecut » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:02 am

A new book has been published on Hindi movie music, called "Gaata Rahe Mera Dil". It is written by Anirudha Bhattacharjee and Balaji Vittal, who had earlier written a book called "R D Burman- the man and the music".

The book discusss 50 classic songs from the history of Hindi movies. The oldest song is from" Street Singer" ( 1937) sung by K L Saigal. The latest is "Ae ajnabi tu bhi kabhi" (Dil Se). The 300 page book published by Harper Collins discusses the history and other information behind the making of the songs.

This book is getting good reviews. Unfortunately this book is not available in small towns (I am a small town person living in a small town). From the review of this book as well as from what I read in the earlier book on R D Burman, I find that the "Technical" details that the authors discuss about the songs is nothing but bullcrap. Here is what the authors say about the "Dosti" (1964) song- Mera toh jo bhi kadam hai.

The composers use two Komal notes—Dha and Ni—in the mukhra where all the other five shudh notes give the song a major-scale colour. The antara, with the emphasis shifting to a Komal Re, creates the transitory feel of a change in scale. The use of Komal notes—the Ga and Ni—creates an aura of unconventiality and underlines the desolate cry of grief…”


I feel that the above "technical" discussion makes no sense whatsoever. I request SL, our technical guru, to tell us what he thinks of the above comment on the song. S L, if you can get hold of this book, please give us your review of this book.

Here is a news item on this book.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/life ... 185544.cms

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:16 am

Will do. FIrst I am unable to recollect this song. Have to hear it.
The book I will have to order over amazon I guess given I am in a smaller town than what you are in.. I certainly will do the prelims as far as this song is concerned. The extract you have given itself is sort of iffy there..

peaceful
Cash on hand: Locked

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby peaceful » Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:27 am

hi Technocle guru,

i just listen, amazing music of G.S KOHLIS songs, better here ,than boring cricket

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:06 am

My preliminary thoughts. First off, this song is in rag Yaman Kalayan. Mood for this raga is "serene" and "haunting" (depending on the rendition) but I would not necessarily call it grief.. a more appropriate word would be feeling lost, or feeling of longing but not grief.

To get a clear understanding of "haunting" vs "Grief"

Contrast 'Mujhko is rat ki tanhaai mein aawaaz na do" vs "Hum chor chale hain mehafil ko, yaad aaye meri to mat rona".

The "haunting" nature comes from the mM (yes mM and not M) rather than anything else which makes in yaman kalyan instead of pure yaman (which would have a "M" instead. ). Compare that to Koi jab tumhara hriday tod de, tadapta hua jab koi chod de.. (Kalyan) which is again 'haunting' not sad.. I think the author intended to use the term melancholous instead of "sad" as in tragic or rondu as we would say in hindi.

(cos of my leg, I cannot really play my KB right now (position of the foot pedals pls the distance were the KB will have to be cos of my leg and my back posture etc, and so cannot really "judge" by ear alone the impact of the komal dha and ni as the author suggests.. so I will not say they are wrong but my priliminary thought suggest the mM being more uumphaatic than anything else.)

m=Pure ma
M=Dirgh/tivra Ma (ma does not have a komal).

(Note: Modern musicians consider Yaman, Kalyan (carnatic eq Kalyani) and Yaman-kalyan as one and the same but traditionalists consider them three distinct ragas).

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:10 am

Also given it is Yaman-Kalyan (I am 100% certain) there is no room for any kind of komal dha or ni there!! where did the author hear that is a big question for me. The raga has all shuddha swars except for the tivra Ma!

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:35 am

BTW kalyan can be romantic and very at that. Yaad rahega payaar ka ye, rangeen zamaana yaad rahega. While songs like Tasvir Banaata Hun, Tasvir Nahin Banati are in raag pahaadi) are extremely haunting.. so it is more of the lyrics plus progression rather than the scale that gives the "feel" even though the notes have about 50% contribution. In some cases, it can be complete opposite feel.. same raga..eg Nache Man Mora Magan Dhig Dha Dhigi Dhigi (Bhairavi) vs Mujhko is raat ki tanhahi mein aawaaz na do... or Tera jaana dil ke armanon ka (both bhairavi again).

(I know raja pai would have my pants off if not for this disclaimer!! He knows his music stuff).

User avatar
squarecut
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:06 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 3
India

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby squarecut » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:43 am

Thanks for your prompt impromptu technical review. And what about the authors going technobabble viz. "... give the song a major-scale colour." There is not concept of major scale or its equivalent in Hindustani classical music. We have "raag" in Hindustani classical music instead. And also "....creates the transitory feel of a change in scale. " Do they mean anything whatsoever, or they are supposed to impress the ignorants.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:50 am

Honestly I have never come across such jargon ever. Trasitionary nature basically means nothing.. there is no such thing. You change scales as in a ragamalika but what exactly a transitionary nature of a scale is foreign to me. And another thing, the major and minor "nature" of a scale is determined by its aroha avaroha progression (pakad) and not by gamaks at all. I am not sure I understand that piece of gobledygook at all.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 8:54 am

And another point.. Major scale usually signifies (in western jargon), an upbeat song.. like lungi dance lungi dance.. the one that gets your blood pumping and a minor scale is more serene, romatic and all those soft feel (hotel california).. so how can a minor scale impart a Major scale color is beyond my technical know how.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:07 am

I editied a few posts above for accuracy (I type as thoughts come to me). Change of raga or mix of them is raga malika. But shift of scales does not change the raga or the feel.. for instance Jai ho.. in the ending crescendo, the scale shifts up by half a note but the ENTIRE progression shifts up. It only adds the "fervor" part or emphasis to the feel.. like say from fan to a die hard fan kinds... same is there in the MJ number man in the mirror in the ending stages.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 9:10 am

One can argue that it might shift moods.. like in case of "pyarr hamen kis mod pe le aaya ke dil kare hai, koi ye bataye kyaa hoga".. when it becomes a fast dance number in the end.. but notice it starts out as a COMICAL/frivolous/chewtiyaagiri song at the outset (only pretending to be a sad song).. and becomes ultra comic by the end (movie satte pe satta).

peaceful
Cash on hand: Locked

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby peaceful » Sun Jul 26, 2015 10:54 am

Can you teach me how to download only one song from you tube? Because when I post certain song, others already open on right hand side.I want to learn more.
I heard you are my technical gurus.

User avatar
squarecut
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:06 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 3
India

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby squarecut » Sun Jul 26, 2015 12:25 pm

The authors were expecting that people will not question all this technobabble rather get "impressed" by it. I suspect that they have come up with similar "technical" analysis in case of all the 50 songs that they have discussed in the book. That should make it a very interesting read, though not in a manner that the authors intended. :popcorn:

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:13 pm

peaceful wrote:Can you teach me how to download only one song from you tube? Because when I post certain song, others already open on right hand side.I want to learn more.
I heard you are my technical gurus.


If you use linux I can help otherwise I can't

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:16 pm

Yes SC, it would be fun to see their treatment of rather esoteric ragas like bilaval, asavari etc.. those are dyamic and the most dynamic (Strictly in my opinion) is malkauns. I think they will use rather quixotic phrases.. like blanket ones to suggest something very exotic but then would not really be saying anything... I love such highly educational pieces :D

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:32 pm

Jaane Bahaar Husn Tera and man tadpat hari darshan ko aaj are both raag malkauns.

User avatar
squarecut
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:06 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 3
India

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby squarecut » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:23 pm

A review of this book was posted in a blog by someone who is my facebook friend as well as the facebook friend of the author of this book. I have questioned the "technical" analysis of this song as mentioned in the review. The author refused to accept that the song is in Yaman Kalyan. Please have a look at the vehement denial by the author in his comments in this post:

http://madhulikaliddle.com/2015/07/24/book-review-anirudha-bhattacharjee-and-balaji-vittals-gaata-rahe-mera-dil-50-classic-hindi-film-songs/

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:38 pm

Well then what raga is it based on? I am willing to be proven wrong but with my limited and rusty knowledge, I am almost willing to bet a bit that it is YAMAN KALYAN. what else is that? I cannot think of any other raga that it may belong to.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:51 pm

Also the argument "Tonic does not change" hmm.. what does he mean by that? Modulation or something else

See, ragas are based on notes and both komal and shuddh and teevra are notes by their own right. Changing from the shudh to komal or dirga, usually will NOT change the tonic (And note tonic can be loosely termed as vadi in hindustani).. modulation is a tonic shift and that also is not quite the same as a raga jump... instances of that happen all the time with NO shift in raga at all (abrupt in kind) (Mozarts K160). But lets not get into all that. I think the authors want a reasonable book to sell.. Let them. Why pee in their party man. People will read it with passing facination, remember some old songs, feel educated and they get some money..all is well.. no harm done.

User avatar
squarecut
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:06 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 3
India

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby squarecut » Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:25 pm

I asked another person what Raag it is. Her verdict- A mixture of Patdeep and Madhuvanti.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:20 pm

Intrsting. I will have to play it to confirm then. Patdeep ka ek gaana hai megha chaye aadhi raat baran ban gayi niniyaa.. trying to hum those together does not give me the feel.. I will have to play it on the kb to be sure. I am still going to stick to yaman kalyan for the interim (apne aap ko wrong bolne me sharm aata hai naa khud ko..).

Madhuvanti mein even if not a good example I can think of only one song and that is way obscure one.. Rasm-e-Ulfat Ko Nibhaen To Nibhaen Kaise from movie Dil Ki Rahen

User avatar
squarecut
CF Senior
CF Senior
Posts: 2003
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:06 am
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 3
India

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby squarecut » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:23 am

Both these raag(Patdeep/ Madhuwanti) have komal Ga. In any case neither Yaman Kalyan nor Patdeep/ Madhuvanti have Komal Dha and Ni that the author of the book was tom tomming about.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:52 am

Yup.. ye komal dha aur ni kidhar is paida kiyaa is ne.. Did you ask the author what raga he thinks that is?

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Tue Jul 28, 2015 3:59 am

and hindustani/carnatic music is an ocean.. I got trained for a few years and that in a mixed martial arts style.. a little boxing and karate and taikwando thrown in.. i.e hindustani, carnatic and western theory.. so it is impossible that I will be an "expert" to know all the ragas out there and recognize them(jack of all perhaps but master not at all ). There are tons of ragas that I might not even heard or or styles there of.. It is highly possible that I am wrong here but my gut feel stll leans towards yaman-kalyan or its variant. But I will not say now that it is a 100% sure case as I did earlier. Ab your other friend has firmly planted that doubt in my bird brain.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:02 am

Off top of my head, Bhairavi has ga, ni and dha komals in it.. cannot think of any other. (Edit and Malkauns)

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:13 am

Hmm come to think of it.. bahut sare hain!!.. jaunpuri and darbari kanda are also in the candidate list.. aur bhi honga.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:49 am

Yaar re to hai aaroha mein.. which both patdeep and madhuvanti do not have as far as I can recall! Jara confirm karoge from your friend? But hindi movies do not conform to the rules of classical music strictly. So vo bhi ek locha hai.

GpeL
CF Champion
CF Champion
Posts: 12584
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:11 pm
Cash on hand: Locked
Reputation: 0
Swaziland

Re: Book on Hindi movie music-Gaata Rahe Mera Dil

Postby GpeL » Tue Jul 28, 2015 4:57 am

DAMN.. I Cannot play the KB man.. ye tere dost ke lambaa waala G mein ungli kar diyaa ab saala head is phating with curiousity.. grrrrrrrrrrrr